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The High Price of Freedom
Posted by Henrik on 12 September 2001, 17:12 GMT

I doubt that there could be anyone who is not all too aware of the terrible tragedy that occurred yesterday in the United States. We live in a world that is now vastly different from what it was only a day ago.

Our community represents people from across the world. Of all our members, the majority are Americans. Almost certainly, someone amongst our number has lost someone they knew, someone they loved... it is entirely conceivable that a member of our community was among those who died. I do not know. In all likelihood, we will never know. But we do not need to know to show our compassion towards the victims of these terrible acts of terror. Those who died were fellow human beings, and that is enough.

I speak for the entire staff when I say that our thoughts are with you all at this time.

 


The comments below are written by ticalc.org visitors. Their views are not necessarily those of ticalc.org, and ticalc.org takes no responsibility for their content.


Re: The High Price of Freedom
Matty500  Account Info

Really, the A-Bomb...sorry, too many consequences...to bad they already killed McVeigh, he might have come in handy....

     13 September 2001, 15:17 GMT

Re: The High Price of Freedom
aaorn h  Account Info

THE UNITED STATES


This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the
least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about
German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and
hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them,
unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting
American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them
an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not
one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
read regarding the United States. It is nice that
one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of
the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything and never even get a thank you for the
things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to
as many people as you can and emphasize that they
should send it to as many of their friends until
this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just
a single American that has read this.

     13 September 2001, 16:39 GMT

Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

For everything stated in that letter I can find something that shows the other side of the US. Come on, you really think that whoever did those attacks, did it without a reason, just for fun. Don't consider yourself or your country as an angel with a golden heart.

The Marshall Plan and all the other money the US gave after both world wars was a good thing, good for America in their fight against communism. Thanks to that, communism didn't spread further in Europe, which was good, seen from now. The Marshall Plan however also implied that those countries should become a member of the NATO and that they should allow the US to install military bases on their territory. Very generous hûh.

The Truman Policy is even worse. It said that the US should help every country where communism tended to gain power. The idea might be good, but the way they executed this Policy... The US gave dictators the power in those countries. And a dictator is exactly the opposit of freedom, the opposit of democracy, that what is called under attack these days.
The US feared communism so badly that they started to barge in other countries' politics, countries that were suspected of being allies of Russia, but weren't. It were kolonies that were fighting for their freedom. And in every revolution the US saw the hand of Russia, where it wasn't and took off those countries freedom.

When earthquakes happen or something else very badly and a country cannot handle it on its own, the US sends help. True, but that counts for other countries too. If you didn't get help for those 59 communities then that must have been because it wasn't really necessary. How many countries are willing to help now? I think there aren't much that really don't want to.

America had the first man on the moon. Russia had the first sattelite, the first living creature and the first man in space. Russia also had better technology for putting a man on the moon. The US just had more money. A lot of their technology by the way, has been made by others, non-americans.

You think Americans put their scandals in the store window? Nobody does that. Others do it for you. Like I do now. And sometimes it is necessary to feel yourself ashamed, to accept what you've done wrong, and that I think, is what Americans (and also a lot of other people in the world) still have to learn. I know of one case in which the US accepted it had done something wrong. That was when president Bush apologized for what had happent in China with a US military aircraft.

Speaking of aircrafts, the US isn't the only country in the world that builds airliners. Ever heard of Airbus?

     13 September 2001, 21:45 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

<<Don't consider yourself or your country as an angel with a golden heart.>>

I am not an American; however, I know for a fact that the US does have a golden heart. It does make mistakes sometimes, as do all nations -- after all, we are human.

<<The Marshall Plan however also implied that those countries should become a member of the NATO and that they should allow the US to install military bases on their territory. Very generous hûh.>>

Yes, it is generous. However, I do not think it is a good idea for *any* country to have its own armed forces. Instead, we must work on forming a world armed force. This will not be easy, because of nationalistic bias and other factors, but it is necessary.

<<You think Americans put their scandals in the store window? Nobody does that.>>

Well, at least compared to other countries (including mine), Americans are more open about scandals.

     14 September 2001, 02:07 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

Maybe the US looks like its more open about scandals, because sometimes they just can't hide it. Like that military aircraft flying against a cable-railway in Italy. I think there are a lot of things we just don't know about (yet).

I know everybody is human and makes mistakes, but from the letter it seemed like the US is an exception. Everything stated in that letter shows only the good part of the facts. The examples given there are completely twisted and wrong. I know the US does good things too. They helped in both WWs. But they must also accept that some things they did are completely off the wall. (Like christians must accept that the catholic church has done many wrong things in the past.)

About a united military force. That's what NATO is. The only problem is that the US doesn't consider itself as a member, but as a chief of that organisation. And that is a wrong way of thinking.

Many people, not only US, still have a wrong picture of what happened tuesday. I mean, *why* it happened. That letter is something confusing. It makes one think that the attacks were without reason, that an innocent nation was attacked. That doesn't authotorize terrorist attacks of course, but that's another discussion. I just want to say, that one should learn from what happened and understand and why it happened, instead of just hoping that it will never happen again.

     14 September 2001, 13:38 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
aaorn h  Account Info

I thought of arguing with you, but I see it is pointless. You have a chip on your shoulder, and whatever I say you will just twist it to fit your warped and jaded perspective. When others and I gave food, clothing, and our money to help others in moment of tragedy, it is America's “Golden Heart” that is acting. This letter is not for you; it is for the people of the United States who are fearful, sad, and angry. Be happy that you’re in America, because you can hate us and remain relatively unharmed, which is not true everywhere. Strangely I could not live in a place where I hated the ruling government. Maybe that is just me?

God bless you Sir, and God Bless America.

PS.
For those Countries that allowed us in they’re bounders they welcomed us with open arms.

     14 September 2001, 15:53 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

Yes that's America's Golden Heart. I agree completely, but that heart has a shadow side, a dark side. Maybe you don't see it (most Americans don't), but it's there. It's the heart of your nation, not the heart of the people living in it. It is your nature, your attitude towards the world. And that nature is very ego-centric.

     18 September 2001, 19:34 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

It's called "Propaganda." Written strictly to boost moral for Americans.

     15 September 2001, 04:34 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Henry Hart  Account Info

Wouldn't that be "morale"?

     25 September 2001, 06:00 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Yep, thanks.

     8 October 2002, 17:09 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Robert Mohr  Account Info

>>The Marshall Plan however also implied that those countries should become a member of the NATO and that they should allow the US to install military bases on their territory. Very generous hûh.

NATO wasn't created until after WWII (April 4, 1949 to be exact), not WWI, and the Marshall plan had nothing to do with it.

     24 September 2001, 03:02 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

The Marshall Plan is dated June 5, 1947. The plan itself had indeed nothing to do with NATO or anything military. It was solely economic. The execution of the plan however wasn't. After WWII US military bases in Europe remained present. If they could stay, that country could get a loan. Later (1.5 years) things have been put in a treaty and so NATO was founded. Today there are still US military bases (not only in Europe). I know no other country that has a military base in another.

     29 September 2001, 21:32 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Henry Hart  Account Info

who's side are you on? I thought it was an excellent editorial...

     25 September 2001, 05:57 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

At your side, but I hate articles or people that, in whatever way, deny the truth.

     29 September 2001, 21:35 GMT


Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Barrett Anderson  Account Info
(Web Page)

"Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon? "

anyone seen that fox special (may have been on other networks also) about the fact that there is TONS of almost non-denyable evidence that the US has NOT put a man on the moon? i could go into this in detail with the evidence but that would take up tons of space. but i would really like to hear a reply to that special on tv (i WANT to believe that we have put a man on the moon [but after that TV special i was convinced that it wasn't so])

     14 September 2001, 04:47 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Michael Holt  Account Info
(Web Page)

Any one that doesn't think we went to the moon is very delusional. I have seen the devices that got us there and watched the show on fox. I laughed constantly throughout the show. All of their “non-denyable evidence” is a complete joke. Some of their examples are no stars, shadows aren’t completely black, and the flag is up. First, the stars aren’t visible for the same reason the stars aren’t visible during daytime on earth…the sun is many times brighter than the stars…you can see the same thing by comparing the sky at night in the country with that of the city…the city lights make few stars visible. Second, shadows aren’t completely black because (disproving their own ideas) the earth is in the sky. The earth is much much brighter in the moon’s sky than the moon is in ours. Lastly, the flag is up because there is a cross bar…because in a vacuum the flag cannot be up with out it. For “non-denyable evidence” we were there…how do you explain all of those rocks from the moon?… or visit a space and rocket center (Huntsville or Cape Canaveral) and see the giant rockets very capable of getting us there. It’s really sad that such a human marvel is being downplayed as a hoax. Btw, it’s spelt deniable.

     15 September 2001, 02:26 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Btw, it's spelled "spelled".

     15 September 2001, 04:36 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Cory02  Account Info

Amen

     15 September 2001, 19:37 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Kane_82586 Account Info

I haven't seen the show, but have heard much about it from friends who are now convinced the landing was a hoax. If anyone could tell me some of the arguments on the show or direct me to a website where I can read about it, email me at kane_82586@hotmail.com

     21 September 2001, 03:56 GMT

Re: The High Price of Freedom
David  Account Info
(Web Page)

I saw that special too. There are plenty of good, logical explanations for some of the things they mentioned. Let me point out a few.

I think that the reason there were no stars viewable is that the surface of the moon was very bright because it was getting unfiltered sunlight. The camera had to be designed in a way that did not bleach the image. Faint stars in the background just might not have been bright enough to come through.

The major reason that the parts of the space shuttle that were in the shadow were not completely black was because the ground was reflecting light onto them. Why wouldn’t the ground do this? Also, as you mentioned, the earth would also help light things up. If you have indirect light from multiple directions, there won’t be a pitch-black shadow.

The reason that you didn’t see a normal plume from the lift-off is because it is in a vacuum. The gasses would outgas quickly in all directions instead of just aiming down. If you look at the footage, you can see this.

I had more arguments, but that’s all I can remember for now.

     18 September 2001, 19:31 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
jeff m  Account Info

anyone ever think about the fact that we have rocks from the moon with a composition that matches what we can observer from the moon's spectra, and that there is nothing like them anywhere on earth? also, did you notice that the FOX show never had any direct NASA rebuttals; they only showed them making a general statement, then cut off the specific facts.

     24 September 2001, 13:51 GMT

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