This whole topic has disturbed me. Apparently, we seem to be bound (by God?) to repeating the same mistakes again and again.

Even _after_ a tragedy such as this, we still find people turning back to God. We still find people praying. They still look for help in the wrong place.

The future is subject to change only on our action. All of the propaganda and rhetoric about "free will" is worth nothing to the effort. People quote scripture while others are killed. This pattern has occured throughout the life of Western Europe, and apparently still holds some audience.

Anyone who comes at this speaking of God is a lost cause, and apparently devoid of any intellectual worth. If I point a gun at your head and pull the trigger, God won't stop the bullet. Never has. Don't you find it odd that God conforms to the laws of physics? Don't you find it odd that your "merciful" God didn't stop those planes physically? I demand a reason why an all-powerful God couldn't/wouldn't do so. PHYSICALLY.

None of you could possibly justify the deaths of 6,000 innocents with your God. It doesn't work. In fact, it's an insult to their memory.

I suggest we apply our efforts to waking up and seeing the world for what it is: one in need of great repair, and one in which there is no place for religious rhetoric and brainwashing. Instead of praying, actively donate to the Red Cross. Get off of your knees and use your hands.

And if I hear one more person quote scripture thinking that he is actually helping the situation, I think I'll scream. And spare me the diatrabe on me being in danger of hellfire.

How can you be so blind?
Do you think that you are more intelligent just for not believing in God? Do you really think that just because there are earthquakes and tornados in the world, and human beens kill other human beens God doesn't exist? Is a very easy way to say stupid things and thing that you can solve whit a stupid comment a philosophical problem that hasn't be solved for hundred and hundred of years.....

Human beens? That's laughable. Ha-ha! dumb*cough*arse

We can't all speak English as a first language. How's your French? My guess is, worse than his English.

Beautifully written, but unfortunately mostly incorrect

Why do you not respect what other people believe? You stated that praying is a waste of time. Good luck stopping 5 billion+ people who worship some sort of god from praying. I'm not going to start preaching religion, but I'll narrow it down to this: you are the most closed-minded and egocentric person I've seen on this board

"The future is subject to change only on our action. All of the propaganda and rhetoric about "free will" is worth nothing to the effort. "

Certainly an interesting statement you've made there. I couldn't agree more that the future is subject to change on our action. I'm not sure I follow your attack on the idea about free will though. The idea that God has given us free will to make our own decisions supports your idea about changing our future and taking our lives into our own hands. It certainly doesn't contradict it as you seem to suggest.

"Anyone who comes at this speaking of God is a lost cause, and apparently devoid of any intellectual worth."

Well, I don't want to get into a petty argument here but it's an old debate trick to attack the person you're debating instead of the idea. If you want to be taken more seriously you should avoid blanket attacks like this that are obviously not true. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find an individual more intelligent than yourself who is relegious.

"I demand a reason why an all-powerful God couldn't/wouldn't do so."

Well, it's not a matter of couldn't it's a matter of wouldn't and for precisely the same reason that I addressed earlier. God has given us free will to make our own decisions. Think about it, would you like God to intervene everytime something bad happened? Perhaps you'd say yes. If so however, then we are nothing more than puppets with no real freedom or sentient thought. Without the free will to choose our own decisions we're nothing more than robots.

"Instead of praying, actively donate to the Red Cross. Get off of your knees and use your hands."

What makes you think people don't do both? You don't give enough credit to your fellow mankind. I can promise you that across the nation thousands of churches are collecting money for the victims.

Just because you're not religious does not mean that you should attack those that are or have some sort of superiority complex. It's true that the misinterpretation of religion has caused many bad things but when people do such things in the "name of God" then it has no more meaning than doing something in the name of coca cola. It's nonsense, if I killed someone in the name of Josh Morris that doesn't make you involved in any way other than the fact I took your name and misused it and twisted for my own purposes. Religion shouldn't be abandoned because misguided individuals distort it for their evil means. Take away religion and God and there will still be disturbed and evil people.

Since you seem so opposed to scripture quoting, I'll just throw a quote out by St. Augustine that shouldn't offend even you: "Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you."

"The idea that God has given us free will to make our own decisions supports your idea about changing our future and taking our lives into our own hands. It certainly doesn't contradict it as you seem to suggest."

Actually, if taken in the context I originally intended, the "idea that God has given us free will" is an insult to common sense: God didn't do it, sentient life _is_ free will. Why are you so anxious to attribute the nature of our functioning to something that can't be seen or observed? I can think of very little more primitive.

"...it's an old debate trick to attack the person you're debating instead of the idea. If you want to be taken more seriously you should avoid blanket attacks like this that are obviously not true. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find an individual more intelligent than yourself who is relegious."

Odd how you call me on "old debate tricks" and pull the one you just corrected me on in the same paragraph. Of course, to me, I think that it would be impossible for me to find someone more intelligent than me who is theistic: believing in and living in accordance to the rules of something that has no physical place in the universe makes you primitive and--let me think of the word--deluded, even if you've three Ph.D's and a Nobel prize.

"God has given us free will to make our own decisions. Think about it, would you like God to intervene everytime something bad happened? Perhaps you'd say yes. If so however, then we are nothing more than puppets with no real freedom or sentient thought."

You're neck-deep in dogma. Hell yes, I would have loved for God to intervene and save those 6,000 odd people. Perhaps he was just making a point about free will? But he didn't. And he hasn't. And he won't. And it's not an issue of "sometimes." For each "miracle" there are thirty tragedies. Wake up. I'm not being hateful, I'm telling you the objective, empirical fact that there's no room in this universe for a God. It doesn't work. Hence the lack of proof. Hence his absence in daily affairs. Hence fanatic attempts to carry out "His" will.

"What makes you think people don't [pray and help]? You don't give enough credit to your fellow mankind. I can promise you that across the nation thousands of churches are collecting money for the victims."

Religion, whether you admit it or not, has caused this tragedy. It caused the Inquisition. It condoned slavery. Churches function on the basis that they will have more followers. I give credit to mankind, sure, for being primitive in its current state and for being asleep. Wake up to reality. There is no God. My lack of proof is not indicative of his existence. Your lack of proof certainly isn't either. (And besides, why should I have to disprove something never proven?)

"...superiority complex. ...Religion shouldn't be abandoned because misguided individuals distort it for their evil means. Take away religion and God and there will still be disturbed and evil people."

I don't have a superiority complex, except with respect to people who ignore reality. Why not be superior? My God (me) doesn't forbid it. And if you leave religion said disturbed people have a _motive._ More bombings. More terrorism. Less common sense. More evil.

"Since you seem so opposed to scripture quoting, I'll just throw a quote out by St. Augustine that shouldn't offend even you: 'Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you.'"

Actually, my aversion to scripture is more because I believe that every man should be intelligent enough to put his own thoughts into words. So, in quoting St. Augustine you gained no more respect. Use your own words and you'll find egocentric buttheads (heh) like me more receptive to your rhetoric.

And, just to keep this on-topic, I want to state that all of what I have said should be taken in context for Islam, as well as Christianity. And for Hinduism and Judaism... I just have a problem with things that proport a world like that in which we live. It's time for us to see the things like the WTC tragedy as what they are: cop-outs. Manifestations of weak thought and great faith.

I tire of proving reality.

Well, even if english is not my native language, I'll do my best to try to make me understand.

Do you think that the pragmatism, the empiric manifestations of truth are the only explanation for all? I think that the scientism as well as fanaticism has cause (Hiroshima)(Tween Towers) and will cause thousands and thousands of deaths. And besides, all science has a little part of belief. When you learn Euclids axiomes, you can demostrate them, but you accept it. So it suppose a "believe".
Have you ever read Aristote? I guess not. You think that you are god but you are immerged in the most deeply dig of ignorance. "All the causes of mouvement are related to god, because is the motor of all the nature and it's the end as well" Methaphysics. So, even if god (as concept) is not visible, you can't say that is directly related to the nature... (Ethic, Spinoza). And besides you are completely wrong if you confuse Religion, Fanatics and God. And I'll make you a favor explaning you the differences. First of all you can't confuse Religion (chrisitanity, judaism... etc) with Fanaticism (Fundamentalism, Taliban etc...) because one make (or try) a symbological analysis of what they read, the Bible for instance, and the others thake "word by word" what they read. And it cause.... what happened. And in the other side is GOD, many authors have made a rational demostration of his existence (Descartes, Saint Thomas etc....) the reason why not everybody believes that he actually exists is because the religion supose that degree of "believ". Those are the three big differences. And when you talk about Inquisition or Taliban like Judaism of Christianism is a very BIG mistake.
And, if you are going to say me that I sholud not quote Aristote because I have to use my intelligence (and all that shit), let me tell you something. Kant (a man who is quite more intelligent than you) said that God is very far of our stupid human intelligence, so saying stupid things (like you does) about god, religion and all will not make a lot of difference, because not only you have show us that you are an idiot but because you talk whitout "knowledge of cause".
And for finishing, if you are going to say me that I'm a dogamtic or something.... you should first know that I'm very far from it. And, let me give you an advice.... if you want to answer this message...... read about 20 books of philosophy.... so that I could discuss to my disciple..... (not of course my equal.....never).

well i can feel the love in this place... why must we all rag on each other for our differences. There seems to be a war going on, not only in our countrys but a war started from the differences in opinion and religion in this message board. There is no true religion! I am catholic, so dose that mean that it is the true religion... no! And i don't everyone else to be catholic, because i wouldn't know if this is the right religion for every one else. By being a catholic i was brought up to belive that of what was written in the "Holy Bibble". Muslims were raised and taught the muslim religion reading there bibble. Religion is what diversifies our world. There are always going to be us that question religion and God. Some of us may folow and some may walk away. You're either a beliver in god or you belive that when you die your body rotts and you no longer exist. Religion gives people hope of what is to come...

"Do you think that the pragmatism, the empiric manifestations of truth are the only explanation for all?"

Yes. If you give a child a lobotomy for epilepsy, his or her personality changes. Skills change. Goals change. Speech patterns. How indicative of a soul is that?

"...all science has a little part of belief. When you learn Euclids axiomes, you can demostrate them, but you accept it. So it suppose a 'believe.'"

Good! Yes, when I mix ammonia and bleach I will get Chlorine gas. I believe that will kill me, so I refrain from doing so. Your point? You seem to have adequately restated the definition of "belief." Now, justify your belief in God. If you believe in him and jump off a building what happens? Surely you know you will get hurt or die. But what if you _really_ believe in him? Really _really_? ::grin::

"Have you ever read Aristote? I guess not. You think that you are god but you are immerged in the most deeply dig of ignorance. 'All the causes of mouvement are related to god, because is the motor of all the nature and it's the end as well' Methaphysics. So, even if god (as concept) is not visible, you can't say that is directly related to the nature... (Ethic, Spinoza)."

Ignorance _is_ burying yourself in the works of others. Enlightenment is thinking for yourself. Perhaps if you took a step back you would realize that the reason why you are religious is because you and your parents appreciate too greatly the works of dead writers.

"And besides you are completely wrong if you confuse Religion, Fanatics and God...And when you talk about Inquisition or Taliban like Judaism of Christianism is a very BIG mistake."

Alright, I'll take you through my thought processes on this one. If someone believes in God, and believes that his only redemption or source of happiness comes from something he in reality cannot observe, then what is to stop him from going to any means to satisfy God? Is that not the root of fanaticism? Since you have yet to prove existence of God, I can safely assume you all to be fanatics. (In reality, you're living your life according to the rules of religion, and we all know life is short. Therefore, to me, you're fanatics on account of pissing away your lifetime.)

"And, if you are going to say me that I sholud not quote Aristote...you have show us that you are an idiot but because you talk whitout 'knowledge of cause.'"

I don't agree with Aristotle, Kant or you on this one. And I don't consider myself measured by their thoughts or standards.

"And for finishing, if you are going to say me that I'm a dogamtic or something.... you should first know that I'm very far from it. And, let me give you an advice.... if you want to answer this message...... read about 20 books of philosophy.... so that I could discuss to my disciple..... (not of course my equal.....never)."

You religious people and your need for disciples. Never understood that.

You see? This is what I'm talking about. Debates like these lead to compromise only, if the non-religious party is generous. So far I have been given only references to (as far as I know) equally deceived dead men's words. Hardly empirical, and hardly convincing. Entirely blind.

But if I could snap my fingers and make fanatics realize they were wasting their lives, I suppose the WTC towers would still be standing.

Are you joking right?
If I speak about the words of death people is because there's a reason because this deaths are still remember (no like you, because when you'll die, almost "nobody" will noticed). And that reason is because they said some things more intelligent that you.....
"Yes. If you give a child a lobotomy for epilepsy, his or her personality changes. Skills change. Goals change. Speech patterns. How indicative of a soul is that? "
I must say that I never listen a stupidiest example in my life. Who said that the soal is what gives personality to people? The soal, is the "anima" in latin. Descartes showed in "Discourse of Reason" that soal is something more than that. But this time I'll let you read death people.
If god said me to kill somebody, he must say it to me in a voice from the sky..... and if that happens.... you'll believe in god too..... (I don't know if you will understand the meaning of my example, If you don't tell me.....)
Disciple.... because I'm you tutor..... like your teacher... like school.... not religion.... you make wrong associations.... don't you see?
I must admit that I've never listen somebody to say me that read death people is wrong (It's the MOST STUPID THING I'VE EVER HEARD). And this kind of meditations..... make me feel that this world is full of idiots..... and pseudo-intelectuals..... like you.....
I advice you... that all what you know.... was discovered by death people.....

::sigh:: So it all boils down to aggression? That's unfortunate. I thought we were going to continue our meaningful discourse.

All that I know was discovered by dead people. I guess I'll have to convert immediately.

I pity your children. :)

Meaningful discourse, unfortunately, was impeded by a language barrier.
I really don't think religion played a true part in this attack. I believe that a group of people, angry about USA's actions in the Gulf War, used religion (and verbatim, even literal, interpretations of the documents thereof) as an excuse to punish people whose majority took no part in the actions.
While I believe in God and am an active Catholic, I don't think we should use this time to quibble over the existence of the deity. (Not to say that you are totally wrong in your arguments. I myself am annoyed by all the God Bless Americas I see everywhere and can understand your desire for a GodLess America.) I would like to tell you, Seņor Morris, that you should not be using these events as an excuse to start tearing down the beliefs of others (however ignorant you may perceive them to be), beliefs that may be keeping many people from plummeting into despair. Because, frankly, not very many people are as strong-willed as you are, and their beliefs help them find strength in a time when they feel weak. Let the theists find solace in what we believe.
Please don't construe that as an argument, but rather just as a thought.
Oh, and quotes often are a great boon, because some, not being as strong-willed or articulate as you are, have difficulty solidifying their thoughts, and something somebody has already said is the perfect verbalization of what they were thinking. This, in turn, validates their thoughts, because someone whom the centuries have respected has thought similarly to them, and in their feelings of insignificance, it makes them feel good to connect to someone regarded as significant by historians, philosophers, and others with an eye to the past.
That's all I have to say.

Hey Josh-
I just want to tell you how refreshing it is to finally read a fellow atheist's words, and I just want to comment how typical the Christian/theist's response is: they get all defensive and spout off idiocy, quoting scripture or philosophy, which is highly unprovable and a weak basis for any argument. They call us closed minded, but who are the ones who have considered and fully examined the other side? It's so much easier to believe in a god than not to, and every atheist I have ever met has always been part of some religion: I was a Jew, I have been to Israel, seen the "holy sites." But what did it for me, that is, what made me an atheist (or at least began the conversion), was the "Dome of the Rock" where Mohammed "ascended to heaven" and part of the rock he was on clung to his feet. Yeah Fucking right! The holes were square and looked to have been cut out. After seeing this, I considered my own religion and saw it for what it was: pure unadulterated dogma. I challenge any "believer" to go to this site: http://www.positiveatheism.org/
or search for atheism and at least research its pricipals. Atheism isn't morally inferior to religion, as a matter of fact, its superior: if everyone was atheist, those 5,600 people would be alive right now, as well as the victims in Kosovo, the Holocaust, the so called "Crusades", or any person who died stupidly in the name of religion. When you look at it, religion is the curse of humanity as it has caused more deaths than ANY OTHER CAUSE in the history of mankind. Thanks for reading this, hopefully with an objective opinion.- Aaron

I understand what you are saying, and I hate to burst your bubble, but if everyone in history were atheist, the victims of the Crusades would still be dead, seeing as the Crusades occurred nearly a millennium ago. Sorry, bud.

Pardon my very poor english and QD style


Josh Morris , about proving the reality.

The science produces knoledge from the empirical world, but science it self is not empirical.
The knoledge building (as a metaphor) is rooted on the a "method" that asures that the
building is coeherent (or solid). Sometimes half of the building falls (khun paradigm) because
a revolution take place (like the quantics physics ). However the method of science is based
on logics. Logic has nothing to do with the truefh. The proof is to understand quantics you
have to release boolean logic.(logic could be an heuristic construction of an empirical universe)
What i am tryng to saying to you is that if your are dreaming,
?how can you possible know that you are not awaked?, i.e. you
can only acess to a dreams knowledge. When you calculate
the path of a rock falling down, you beleve in gravity because
the theory predicts it so. But is nothing there more than believing.
If it wasn't like that, science could answer simple questions like:
What is the nature (essence) of gravity ?
What is the nature (essence) of ligth ?
What is the nature (essence) of the fundamental state of an atom ?
What is the nature (essence) of energy, entropy etc etc ?
We know how, but we don't have a clue why or what.
you can't prove reality, that is not possible in our dream :)

I don't beliave in god, and yes, i believe in science.(but they are not exclusive) of course is all a question of believing.
however i like to read dead people like kunt and aristote,
but also adam smith, marx or goethe.



About the twins.
I was shocked, i am still in shock.

Let me say that perhaps EUA is the only country
that poorly question certain (painfull) thinks .

I am not germain but i understand (the pain and contradiction) what a german feels when he sees
a ww2 germain soldgier dying in field of battle. The same is
true for all countrys, because every country carry a mist of guilty, sorrow and identity.
it is time for the americans at this time of pain to look "inside". (i am not saying that was faire)
It is not a question of justice, never were (there was justice in hiroxima, nagasaki, hamburg or in guernica ?)
A few years ago i was shocked; 1 000 000 inocent people in ruanda dyes.
Did we, western countrys, make 3 minuts of silence?
Did the world stopped ?
Last decade i was shocked when indonesia killed 1/3 of
east timor innocent people with american guns ?
Do i scream (as portuguese) when today thounsands of
people in angola dyes due to a war that maybe portugal
between 1967/1974 could avoid. ?
the list goes on ....

<<What is the nature (essence) of gravity ?
What is the nature (essence) of ligth ?>>

Surely we know these things. Just read some modern physics books/articles.

Science does use lgiht and gravity, and can even sort of explain them. But I have yet to see Science explain how a thought works, or create one in a lab. I'd very much like to see an artificial thought.

"My God (me)"? So you're not an atheist. You're an autotheist.

You seem to have a fairly cynical attitude toward religion. I have two book-series you might find interesting: The His Dark Materials series by Philip Pullman (The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass); and the Dune series by Frank Herbert. The Dune series doesn't start to get cynical until the fourth book and after (out of six), but you haveto read the first three to understand what is going on.

Dear everyone who replies to this message:

Please keep your essays to 1000 words or less. My eyes are starting to get tired