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The High Price of Freedom
Posted by Henrik on 12 September 2001, 17:12 GMT

I doubt that there could be anyone who is not all too aware of the terrible tragedy that occurred yesterday in the United States. We live in a world that is now vastly different from what it was only a day ago.

Our community represents people from across the world. Of all our members, the majority are Americans. Almost certainly, someone amongst our number has lost someone they knew, someone they loved... it is entirely conceivable that a member of our community was among those who died. I do not know. In all likelihood, we will never know. But we do not need to know to show our compassion towards the victims of these terrible acts of terror. Those who died were fellow human beings, and that is enough.

I speak for the entire staff when I say that our thoughts are with you all at this time.

 


The comments below are written by ticalc.org visitors. Their views are not necessarily those of ticalc.org, and ticalc.org takes no responsibility for their content.


Re: The High Price of Freedom
heldercide Account Info

I`m Portuguese and express my sincere condolences to all people out there who are suffering with this attack not to USA, but to mankind, and Democracy and what it represents throughout the entire civilized world. I understand the anger of the anterior post when you say USA should put an atom bomb on them, and I bet it as crossed everyones minds (mine included)!
We`re a small country, and the entire country literally stopped of astonishment as the CNN and local broadcast networks, showed what we all saw! NATO and EUROPE are with you, and this, probably you don`t know but the only American Militar Base between USA and Middle East is located in Portugal, in an Island and yesterday all F-16`s went away and I hope they blast Afghanistam in pieces!!!

     12 September 2001, 19:36 GMT


Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Cybeross  Account Info
(Web Page)

The A-Bomb!?!?! are you crazy? As much as this act is uncalled for, such is the extreme of "nuking" the enemy. That is, if we even FIND a definitive enemy. The weapons of this world today are so strong that we can no longer cling to foolish nationalism. Just like cavemen formed clans, the clans formed tribes, the tribes formed cities, and the cities formed nations, now is the time that we forget this bull**** and become a PLANET. If we start a nuclear war, it is very likely that the whole world as we know it will be destroyed. Nuclear winter could kill everyone on this planet, no matter which country you are from. So I suggest a more peaceful means to solve this problem. For starters, let's figure out why people would hate U.S (cocky jerks that they are) and more importantly, how the U.S can improve relations with these countries so these terrible incidents don't happen again...

My 2 cents, (btw, i'm an american, so don't think that i have no compassion. I just tell the truth.)

     12 September 2001, 22:16 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

Finally, an American who faces the truth instead of hiding himself behind his so beloved God and thinking he rules the world.
--May your God reveal the truth to you all and fill your hearts with compassion. Compassion for those who do not have it for you.--
Think of why they don't like you instead of thinking of revenge. Grow up, listen to what others in the world have to say. Rule the world together with others. And, as Cybeross expressed it very well, let us form a planet.

     12 September 2001, 23:13 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

Regardless of why the terrorists don't like us (and I am not officially an American), that gives them absolutely no right to start such a mass murder! In the interests of the civilized world, they and all other terrorists *must* be destroyed.

     13 September 2001, 16:16 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
BigRedDog Account Info

I too am an American, and I have heard the "just nuke 'em!" response often. I call this the "standard ignorant American response". It is pathetic, people don't realize that virtually every one on the planet will be affected by just one thermonuclear blast, not to mention the nuclear war that will result. Even if we could make a weapon of mass destruction with no collateral damage, we don't know EXACTLY where the terrorists are hiding out.

We can take 'em just like we did in Desert Storm (don't know why we didn't take Baghdad). It may be a little harder because of the terrain, but we can do it without draftees.

You know what's the really tragic thing? It is taking a situation of this magnitude to unite people to a common cause: tracking these f***ers down!

     13 September 2001, 01:11 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

First, nuking ANYBODY would be the most moronic thing we (the US) could do! I do think that some sort of retaliation is called for, but use conventional weaponry. Second, I don't care how much anybody tries to say that this was a "purely political" thing. The United States was founded upon Chirstian principals. Look in the bible, God says that this kind of stuff will happen unto the end of days. He doesn't say that this or that building will be destroyed, but it does say that the decendants of Ishmael (the followers of Islam) will forever be at war with the descendants of Isaac (Jews by bloodline and Christians by faith). I just think that we need to remember that as we're doing all this, that this is a holy war that fights as much with prayer as it does with guns and missles. "If the Lord is for us, who can be against us?"

     13 September 2001, 03:38 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

The tricky part is that their God and your God are actually one and the same.

     13 September 2001, 13:06 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
ooosadface  Account Info

"Thou shalt have no other God's before me."

Allah is NOT God almighty.
Muhammad is still in the grave but Jesus Christ has risen.

     13 September 2001, 16:14 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

just so that you know, Allah is their WORD for God.

Would you say that 'Dios' isn't God just because it's a Spanish word?

And they themselves admit that Muhammad is not Messiah. They call him a great prophet, but never made a claim that he is godly.

     13 September 2001, 16:48 GMT


Re: The word 'God'
ooosadface  Account Info

Um...I responded to let Tse Tse know that allah and God (the God of Israel) are not the same. I never said that the meaning of the word allah was not god. There are many words in many languages that mean god, but that by NO means makes them the SAME god.

I agree with you on the Muhammad part. I through that in in the heat of passion.

     13 September 2001, 17:42 GMT


Re: Re: The word 'God'
Tse Tse  Account Info
(Web Page)

I repeat. Their God and your God are one and the same. The Koran are the words of the angel Gabriel. Christians know that angel too. He's known as a messenger of God, of one God.

http://www.quran.org.uk/
ieb_quran_chittick.htm

     13 September 2001, 19:22 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
ooosadface  Account Info

Ummm...when you responded to Robert Maresh about his web site, you said,
"Wow, what a site! Pretty scary. If there was a sentence in the Bible that said Christians should protect their believe at any cost, you would've been one of those freaks flying a airplane through the WTC. I know there isn't but I hope you got my point. Don't you think you overreact a little. This isn't the so much feared apocalypse.
By the way, (for those who read the site) it wasn't your God who flew those airplanes. It was their God."

So what do you really believe?

If Christians, Jews, and Muslims pray to the same God, why don't the Palestinians leave Isarel alone?

     13 September 2001, 20:24 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Tse Tse  Account Info

Yes, that last sentence was merely meant as a joke, because both Gods really are the same. I know a joke isn't really appropriate these days, but I was angry at that time (for which I have my reasons, which I'm not going to express here, but which you can all guess)

Why the Palestinians don't leave Israel alone? Why doesn't Israel leave Palestinians alone? Why don't they both just live together? Everybody has the right to go and live where he wants. That's freedom. And everybody has the right to express his thoughts. How many different races live together in the US? Why can't that just be in the Middle-East? Just because one feels oppressed by the other. And when people feel they're displeased, they fight back. Do no think that they are therefore evil? The Palestinian leader Arafat is very kind man, you should know that. So before you start pointing fingers to somebody, I think you should better hear both sides' story. Things are far more complex than just different beliefs.

     13 September 2001, 22:43 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Rhianna

"Umm"..because they both deserve to live someplace?? Why don't the Palestinians leave Israel alone..hmm..who's fighting who with guns (provided by a third party I might add), and who's left to fight with stones?? I'm not condoning either party, but please,let's not believe everything CNN tells us. Israelis are not the innocent party, neither group is. The same war is being fought on Kashmir, by Pakistanis and Indians, and in many other countries. It's a sad truth but there it is.

     14 September 2001, 06:37 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Oh, please. Neither side is fighting ONLY with stones. They all have guns. I've seen pictures of KIDS with guns. Don't try to say that one side is the victim. They've all become killers.

     14 September 2001, 16:42 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Nana R

I was being figurative my friend. Paelstinian kids may have guns ,but they aren't supplied with the resources the Israelis have.And if you re-read my comment carefully, you'll see I wasn't making one party the victim. The tragedy is that the U.S. media is always portraying the Isrealis as the only victims, and not showing both sides of the picture. Believe what you will but it only makes you ignorant.

     14 September 2001, 20:57 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
ooosadface

"Believe what you will but it only makes you ignorant."

Does this hold true for everyone or only people you get upset with?

     14 September 2001, 21:58 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Kane_82586 Account Info

Oh please....Palestinians don't have as much resources as Israelis because ISRAEL IS A NATION! Ethnic groups within nations can't possibly engage in trade or business with other countries. They are just people within Israel, some of whom use what money they have to further their anti-Jewish goals. I think that Israel is the true victim, though both sides have obviously gone too far. Israel is a nation whose sovereignty is accepted by every major country. The Palestinians have no right to dispute this with Israel. The Palestinians started the whole conflict when several Arab nations attacked Israel just days after its independence was declared. The Jews have been hated ever since their emergence as a race. Just look at their horrible treatment by the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Nazis, and now Palestinians. Why these people hate Jews, I don't know, but somebody needs to stand up for them.

     15 September 2001, 18:50 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Tse Tse  Account Info
(Web Page)

Just read this. Then rephrase your comment. You obviously don't know anything about what's happening there.

http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/
~wm/PAP/wm-pont.html

PS: Jews have always been hated. True. I know why, but it's irrevelant to what's happening in the Middle-East.

     16 September 2001, 12:02 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Kane_82586 Account Info

I read the page, and didn't see anything contradicting me. That really wasn't relevant at all. But I must say that it is ridiculous to think there will be peace. The struggles will continue until the battle of Armageddon, when all Israel's enemies will attack her for a seemingly easy victory. When all seems lost for Israel, God will destroy all His enemies and begin His Millenial Reign on earth. If you reject Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be burning in Hell instead of living eternally with Him.

     17 September 2001, 23:03 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Tse Tse  Account Info

I picked out the sentence for you.

"One can understand the Jews after the WWII holocaust, wanting to return to a homeland of their own, but that obviously didn't give anyone the right to chase the Palestinians off their lands."

Do you understand things now?

The Palestinians had their country there and Israel (with help of others) took that away. And now you say Israel is a nation and the Palestinians are an etnic group within it. Don't you see? Israel wants to get rid of the Palestinians and they do everything to convince the world that the Palestinians are the true evil-doers. They even took advantage of tuesday's attacks!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/
world/middle_east/
newsid_1540000/1540102.stm

And all you see in the media is *Palestinians* fighting Israelis. And *Palestinians* defying Israelis. And *Palestinians* terrorising Israelis. Palestinians celebrating tuesday's attacks, while in the mean time Israelis have killed several Palestinians. You didn't see that on TV, did you?

So before you make a comment like that, do some research. It prevents you from looking stupid. Most of the time the media tell the truth, but they only show a small part of it and so they create a wrong picture. It's like giving a picure of an exploding a-bomb to an alien and then he thinks our planet is nothing more than war and hell. In this example you're the alien.

     19 September 2001, 16:04 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

If you were being figurative you would not have said they had guns. You would have said something like "fighting an armless man".

     8 October 2002, 16:32 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

"Deserve" ? "We both deserve to live someplace" ?
The only thing that any human (including myself there) deserves is death, followed by everlasting anguish in the lake of fire. The only (ONLY, not one of many) reason that we don't have to do that is becasue Jesus Christ led a perfect life and was killed for sins He did not commit, our sins, humanity's sins. Think about that the next time you're about to say that anybody deserves anything.

     22 September 2001, 07:38 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Matt Bagby  Account Info

Now I wouldn't say that we "deserve" death, but I do agree with you on the general issue of entitlement.

Everyone:
THE WORLD (OR ANY GOD YOU BELIEVE IN) DOES NOT OWE US ANYTHING!!! RATHER, WE OWE THE WORLD AND OUR CREATOR FOR GIVING US LIFE AND A FREE WILL!!!

     26 September 2001, 08:46 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
lalu

<<The only thing that any human (including myself there) deserves is death>>

Why on earth would we deserve to die? You are looking only at the bad part of human nature, and ignoring the good part.

     29 September 2001, 09:16 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

What good part?

     30 September 2001, 06:32 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
lalu

What good part? Look at Mother Teresa, Einstein, Gandhi. There is some good in all of us. We all want to help one another, human beings are like that (greed and hate corrupts us sometimes, but overall, I think we are a good species).

     11 October 2001, 06:21 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

I disagree in the strongest possible terms. Mother Teresa was a wonderful human. But I know that she sinned once. That one sin, whether it was killing a hundred people, or taking a millionaire's penny from his millions, makes her guilty. God is such a perfect, holy god that he cannot even be in the same place as sin. When I say that humans "deserve death" what I mean is that we deserve to be cut off from God for all eternity. And that scares me more than anything else.

     9 December 2001, 08:10 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

NO! Gabriel is not known as "the messenger of god. one god" Gabriel is known, in the Bible, as the messenger of THE God, the one who created the whole of the earth, and heavens. The God who will one day sit in judgement on the living and dead alike. Those who have expressed faith in Jesus Christ, son of the living God will be welcomed with open arms into the kingdom of heaven. Those who have rejected Him will be cast into the pit, where there waits everlasting anguish and torment. This is not a "turn or burn" cliche, it's the truth.

     15 September 2001, 08:53 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
acr34  Account Info
(Web Page)

So... you say Christians are right... because the Bible says so?

Idiot.

According to the K'oran they are right. What makes the bible more correct than the K'oran?

If Jesus himself told me to kill my fellow man I would refuse. The lives of people must come before religion.

     14 September 2001, 00:33 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

"The lives of people must come before religion" This is a great line because it demonstrates your amazing lack of understanding. If a person truly, truly mind you, believes with all his heart, soul and mind in a religion, he will put everything secondary to it. I say, without shame or reservation, that I would do ANYTHING that my god asked me to. I admit that I am a Christian, so my views are a little biased, but I get so sick of society saying "religion is dead" and "abortion is okay becasue a fetus isn't really alive" and especially with the darwinism (a religion because there is no solid proof) being taught in "secular" schools. I did get a little angry while typing that last bit, and there is more than a little hyperbole mixed in there.

     15 September 2001, 08:37 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
acr34  Account Info
(Web Page)

So... you say Christians are right... because the Bible says so?

Idiot.

According to the K'oran they are right. What makes the bible more correct than the K'oran?

If Jesus himself told me to kill my fellow man I would refuse.

     14 September 2001, 00:33 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

<What makes the Bible more correct than the Koran?>

First, the Bible is older than the Koran, and that's a few historians talking, not me. Second, the oldest copies of the Bible we have come from (if I remmeber right) the first couple centuries, AD. And doing a comparison with any Bible off the shelf, there are few differences and most of those are because of the translation.

     19 September 2001, 07:41 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

Hinduism is much, much older than Christianity. How does that make it more right or wrong?

OK, I really don't want to get into this religious discussion; I'll shut up now :)

     29 September 2001, 09:18 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

Has the founder of Hinduism ever been seen after his death?

     1 October 2001, 05:37 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

How do you know the founder of Christianity has ever been seen after his death?
And anyway, Hinduism was not "founded" by a single man.

     11 October 2001, 06:23 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

Jacob, I know you started this fight, but still, I had no right to turn on you like that. Sorry if I have offended you.

     11 October 2001, 06:28 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

On the contrary, I'm getting an A in world views right now becaus of this board.

Christianity is the only religion in the world that works on a "Grace" concept. The idea that one can be free of punishment without having to work for it is so phenomenally radical that a human could not have thought it up. There are historians (such as Josephus) that lived in the first century, but were devout Jews. Men like this had friends, neighbors and perhaps family member who saw Jesus after he had "died". These were first-hand accounts that Jesus had been killed, had risen for the dead, and lived among men for another month or so. If that doesn't convince you, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is alive today by the simple fact that I spoke with him this morning.

     9 December 2001, 08:21 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Being Christian, I hate to disagree; but I think a human could QUITE EASILY think up a concept of being free of punishment without doing anything. In fact, that's what a lot of CHILDREN believe. At least, I knew I did.

     8 October 2002, 16:38 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

I'd like to know, if you don't mind, exactly how are Yahweh (the god of the Isrealites and Christians) and Allah (the god of Islam) the same? And I don't want some crap about how "Allah" means "god" in arabic and that's how they're the same, I want exact things. How was the world created? How does redemption work? What evidence was left to prove that there is a god? E-mail me at trexdacy@juno.com if you don't really feel like posting it.

     15 September 2001, 08:44 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

<<What evidence was left to prove that there is a god?>>

We can never have evidence to prove that there is a God. It's just impossible.

     15 September 2001, 15:35 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

I don't mean physical evidence. Take the human body. It is so incredibly complicated that evolution would not work, the "proto-human" would have died long before a "rememdy" to whatever was wrong with it could evolve. The only answer, if you rule out evolution, is a conscious, intelligent will. There's God. Now look at every other animal whose bodies are no less complex than humans. I'm not asking you for God's signiture, I just want to know where God left his fingerprints. Where does it show that there was a purpose behind creation and it wasn't just an accident.

     16 September 2001, 06:50 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

I don't want to go further with this, because my views are different from yours, and I do not wish to offend anyone. One of the things Physics teaches us is to have an open mind, and have respect for others' views, and I do.
One other thing: I think we should discuss terrorism and its victims, and how to fight terrorism, rather than God and religion (in this article).

     16 September 2001, 19:01 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

But God and religion are right in the middle of this issue! You cannot discuss the middle east without bringing in at least some reference to religion. Down through all of history, mankind's home has been between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (more or less where Iraq is now). The region stretching from Italy in the west, Egypt in the south, Iran in the west, and France-Poland in the north is the only place on Earth that is talked about in Scripture. There are, if I'm not mistaken, a few mentions of other locations, but not very many. I am so sick of the idea that everything is OK, as long as it works for you. Well, pornography works for Joe Schmoe over there, so porn is ok? This guy thinks that paligamy is a good idea, so that's ok? I think that my neighbor doesn't deserve to live, so now I get to kill him, right? Because it's right for me, now I shouldn't have to go to prison. Is that right? Is our society in such a sorry state that we're willing to look the other way on issues like this? I was watching prime time tv the other night and saw a Victoria's Secret commercial. For those of you who don't know, this particular commercial featured model, wearing a bra and panties, sitting on a chair and twisting her body around in synch with the music. This was at 8:00 !! How are little kids going to react when they see this? "Oh, I saw an almost naked lady on TV, so it must be ok to look at these magazines!" I don't want to live in that culture.

     19 September 2001, 07:05 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
scott_15_2002

It's easy to say what we need to do but doing it is the hard part. These people believe they go to heaven if the kill a Christian. How are you going to improve relations with that. If you had a ticket to heaven and someone tried to take that away, would you listen to them??? We're going to have to stop it the hard way and people, maybe even innoccent people, will have to die to save future lives that aren't willing to kill without thinking about it.

     13 September 2001, 04:09 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Greg Myers  Account Info
(Web Page)

ok i love how you all think you're so smart by saying don't kill people for this, and don't nuke and so on. We NEED to kill people for this. And not done quietly, we need to braodcast to the world that if you try to terrorize the US there will be severe consequenses for you and your country. That's the only realy way to stop the terrorism. They may be crazy enough to die, but are they willing to kill their whole country too?

     13 September 2001, 06:27 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Killing large numbers of terrorists only creates martyrs for their cause. It has no effect on them but to stir them up into a fiercer frenzy.

     13 September 2001, 08:47 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

That's exactly what Israel does against every terrorist attack. Every time they fight back harder, but has it ever helped? Not a damn thing.

     13 September 2001, 13:10 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

Because they (and other countries that are victims of terrorism) don't get much help. Now that the US has joined the war, it will probably be different.

     13 September 2001, 16:20 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

Isreal uses US weapons. You think that if Americans pull the trigger instead of Iraeli, things would be different?

Besides, who started the problems in the Middle-East? If you think it were the Palestinians, then, believe me, you're quite wrong.

Then, it looks like you really want war. I hope you said that in an act of rage, because if it ever comes to war, there will be no place to hide, not for you, not for me.

     13 September 2001, 20:12 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

<<Then, it looks like you really want war.>>

Me? Want war? I'm not even sure about bombing Afghanistan. We should attack those who do the evil deeds, not innocent civilians.

     14 September 2001, 01:34 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
swainova

Hey,
Palestinians and many other middle-eastern Countries use russian weapons, and you don't see Israel attacking Russia, do you? Im not saying that it was necessarily someone from the Middle East who is behind these terrorist attacks, im just responding to your statement....

     15 September 2001, 18:34 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
ooosadface  Account Info

I believe God will use the mighty army of America to carry out His wrath on the armies that come against His chosen people (the Israelites).

Read the book of Isaih.

     13 September 2001, 17:59 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

So your God is one of revenge and war.

     13 September 2001, 19:33 GMT

Re: The High Price of Freedom
ooosadface  Account Info

God is Love.
Since when is setting someone that you love free from persecution called revenge?
God gave Egypt 400 years to set Israel free from bondage. Then when Moses came to deliver them God gave Egypt 10 extra chances.

     13 September 2001, 20:18 GMT

Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

True, but there God punished Egypt himself. He didn't let people attack Egyptians. The jews remained peaceful and kept their love. What you are saying means war, and war and love contradict each other.

     13 September 2001, 22:51 GMT

Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

Not true, in this case. God loved his chosen people so much that he killed those who enslaved them. If your children were abducted and taken into slavery, wouldn't you kill the people who did it out of love for your child?

And yes, I know that it seems odd that God only chose one people, but such is life.

Just because God only chose one people doesn't mean that you can't become a Christian if you aren't Israeli.

     14 September 2001, 16:45 GMT


Re: The High Price of Freedom
David  Account Info
(Web Page)

Are you saying that if God had decided to love only the Egyptians instead, he would have allowed the Israelites to continue in slavery? The Egyptians didn't worship God, so why would God bless them? He commanded them, through Moses, to "let my people go". He was patient with the Egyptians, and gave them warnings before each plague. When they finally did drive the Israelites out, Pharaoh later changed his mind (once again) and pursued them. Because of their continued disobedience to God, and NOT because God only loved the Israelites and wanted revenge, he destroyed the Egyptian army that was pursuing them. "The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen -- the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea. Not one of them survived." God does not continue to bless a people who turn away from him. The story of Israel shows how they were constantly turning away from God facing the consequences for it. Also, God did not choose only one people, but everyone when he sent Jesus. The whole nature of the relationship between man and God changed. Since everyone has sinned, there is a non-crossable gap between them because the wages of sin is death. One a certain day, the priest would go into the Holy of Hollies, where the Ark of the Covenant was, to make atonement on behalf of the people. The priest could not be defiled in any way or he would die when he entered (because he was entering the presence of God). The sacrifices had to be pure and the best the people had to offer. Anything impure would not work. The people did not have direct access to God, because the people were not clean. This all changed when Jesus died.
"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom."
The heavy curtain that separated God from the people was literally torn in half. This was a very heavy curtain, and it would have been quite loud. He was literally the perfect sacrifice, and now we all have access to God through the Holy Spirit. That is why the curtain split; there was no longer any separation. So you're right, you can become a Christian if you aren't Israeli.

     14 September 2001, 21:34 GMT


Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
swainova

Well stated, man!

     15 September 2001, 00:15 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Stijn Arnauts  Account Info

Personally, I think that God -if there is a God- chose that group of people because they would go through so much. Even now, in the present day, they are still fighting for there rights (I'm NOT saying that they are right, just saying that the haven't had it easy). I think that the are the people who have had the least luck throughout history (correct me if I'm wrong please).

     15 September 2001, 21:50 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

Firstly, there is a God. I know because I spoke with Him this morning. Secondly, you are more right than you know. The Israelites have had some of the worst times in history. They've also had some of the best. Slavery in Egypt, then they're released. Promised land full of powerful armies, God paves the way and the Israelites win battle after battle. Evil King and Israel suffers, God puts in a King after his own heart and Israel prospers. The previous goes on for quite a while, back and forth, back and forth. Exile in Babylon, God reclaims them. Messiah walks in their midst and they miss Him, God is still available for heaven reservations. The Holocaust, God allows enough of His people to survive to continue the race and He gives them back Israel to boot. I could go on for days, but you get the idea.

     19 September 2001, 07:19 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

God is a god of love, not neccesarily a god of peace. Love and peace are not the same. God does love all humanity more than anybody can even begin to fathom. But, He also gets angry. The wrath of a human, that's nothing, the wrath of the all-mighty God, it's terrible. God gave 400 years and 10 chances. If you gave someone 40 days to give something like a CD back to you, then you gave 10 MORE days after that and they still didn't give it back, wouldn't you be a little steamed? And God did not go out and slaughter half of Egypt, He made a way for His people to escape and the Egyptians, seeing even that the sea was held back by something, decided to pursue. God was doing nothing more than protecting His people from death. I'm not saying that the Egyptians were in the wrong place at the wrong time and that God is innocent of that, but I'm also not going to tell Him that He's guilty. This will not sound very good, coming from a Chrsitian, but I'm waiting for the day when we all get to heaven and I watch people like Sigmund Freud, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Karl Marx, and Emperor Nero drop in absolute surrender to the King of all creation. I know that it's a little petty, maybe, and all, but I can't wait.

     15 September 2001, 09:06 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

<<If you gave someone 40 days to give something like a CD back to you, then you gave 10 MORE days after that and they still didn't give it back, wouldn't you be a little steamed?>>

Well, a little, but in this case it's just a CD.

     15 September 2001, 15:36 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

I agree that it's just a CD, but it was 400 YEARS, and it was the lives of thousands of people, wouldn't you go from a little steamed to really, really angry?

     16 September 2001, 06:45 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

Well, yes, initially, but in this case anger and revenge are not the solution. Anger causes a lot of problems. We should be calm and think out a strategy and its consequences before we act. It is hard not to be angry, of course. I am a pretty cool-headed person, but these attacks almost caused me to explode in fury. But, as I wrote above, we all need to calm down and not act in the heat of the moment.

     16 September 2001, 19:08 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

How would you get your people back after 400 years? God tried talking ("Let my people go!" Exodus 5:1). He sent a couple of harless plagues (3 days of complete darkness Exodus 10:21-23). Then He delivered His ultimatum ("This is what the Lord says: 'About midnight I will go throughtout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn of Pharoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her handmill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well...'" Exodus 11:4-5 NIV). God gave warning, and still Pharoh refused to listen. After that, Pharoh let them go, but pursued them. God opened a path through the Red Sea and Pharoh still followed. Then God let the sea fall back, on top of Pharoh's Chariots. How could this have happened differently? If Pharoh had been a little less stubborn. Maybe God did kill many innocents. But if He did, I'm not going to call Him on it.

     19 September 2001, 07:29 GMT

Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Matt Bagby  Account Info

10 extra chances!!!!

You call those plagues extra chances???!!!

Note that the Bible says that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that each subsequent plague could be sent down.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying I think that He is a vengeful god (in my opinion, all 10 plagues had to be sent in order to prevent Israel further injustice at the hands of the Egyptians, and to give people faith) but I do not count that as "10 extra chances"

     26 September 2001, 08:33 GMT


Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Jacob Drexler  Account Info

I agree that they were not exactly "extra chances", but they were there to show the Isrealites that there was a God, and that Moses was His messenger.

     1 October 2001, 05:40 GMT


Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lord_nightrose Account Info
(Web Page)

God also said to love thine enemy. Therefore, how can we avoid killing someone we love to free someone else we love from persecution? Doesn't work too well...

     8 October 2002, 16:41 GMT


Re: The High Price of Freedom
David  Account Info

God is Love. "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) But he is also just.

     13 September 2001, 23:29 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
acr34  Account Info
(Web Page)

LISTEN TO ME YOU BIBLE THUMPING FREAK!!!!!! WHERE ARE THE ISREALITES? ISREAL!!! CAN YOU SAY ANYTHING THAT ISN'T FROM THE BIBLE????????

Sorry but it had to be said. The bible is so full of crap that the Words of God (if any) are almost impossible to find. We all know how the Roman Empire made changes to make itself more powerful. So go ahead and believe the bible, or the k'oran, or whatever. Fine, good. But if your religion says to kill another it is no longer a religion. It is a cult.

     14 September 2001, 00:39 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Quasius  Account Info
(Web Page)

Well, that was very aggressive and rude. Someone seems a little insecure in their (lack of) faith in the Bible.

     14 September 2001, 01:18 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
lalu

True. Whether or not we agree with others' religious beliefs, we should respect them.

     14 September 2001, 01:38 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Quasius  Account Info
(Web Page)

Actually Isreal keeps holding back because we (the US) keeps telling them to. Instead of letting them go take care of their business and the terrorists that attack them constantly, we tell them to try to be nice. Now those same terrorists have come to us. DO we want to be nice to them now? No, so why can't isreal go after the terrorists coming after them?

     14 September 2001, 00:30 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info
(Web Page)

You must know that for the Palestinians, the Israelis are the terrorists.

http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/
~wm/PAP/wm-pont.html

     14 September 2001, 23:12 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Kane_82586 Account Info

Tse Tse, all I have seen you do is refute others' beliefs, no matter what they are. So please, I am asking you what YOU believe about Israel violence, the recent terrorist attack, Pres. Bush, etc. It's very annoying to see you trying to make everyone else feel stupid about what they believe.

     15 September 2001, 19:07 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

With this I apologize to everybody who felt hurt by my comments. It has not been my intention to do that, although I understand that some of my words were a bit rude. My sole purpose was to make you think about it, about last week accidents, about the Middle-East. Probably most of you are still to young to understand.

So I'm not explaining what I think about it, whether that is right or not, because that would require me to explain the whole 20th century. You must know things don't happen just because, just without a reason. Last tuesday attacks are consequences of many other acts in the past.

I wanted to make you criticize what you heard from the media, from the government, from what others tell you. It was not my intention to abandon your belief, to make a fool of you for what you believe. I just wanted you to reflect it all, make you think about.

     16 September 2001, 21:30 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Kane_82586 Account Info

Well said. Apology accepted.

     19 September 2001, 04:41 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
Tse Tse  Account Info

Thank you :-)

     19 September 2001, 16:07 GMT

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