The High Price of Freedom
Posted by Henrik on 12 September 2001, 17:12 GMT
I doubt that there could be anyone who is not all too aware of the terrible tragedy that occurred yesterday in the United States. We live in a world that is now vastly different from what it was only a day ago. Our community represents people from across the world. Of all our members, the majority are Americans. Almost certainly, someone amongst our number has lost someone they knew, someone they loved... it is entirely conceivable that a member of our community was among those who died. I do not know. In all likelihood, we will never know. But we do not need to know to show our compassion towards the victims of these terrible acts of terror. Those who died were fellow human beings, and that is enough. I speak for the entire staff when I say that our thoughts are with you all at this time.
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The comments below are written by ticalc.org visitors. Their views are not necessarily those of ticalc.org, and ticalc.org takes no responsibility for their content.
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Re: The High Price of Freedom
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heldercide
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I`m Portuguese and express my sincere condolences to all people out there who are suffering with this attack not to USA, but to mankind, and Democracy and what it represents throughout the entire civilized world. I understand the anger of the anterior post when you say USA should put an atom bomb on them, and I bet it as crossed everyones minds (mine included)!
We`re a small country, and the entire country literally stopped of astonishment as the CNN and local broadcast networks, showed what we all saw! NATO and EUROPE are with you, and this, probably you don`t know but the only American Militar Base between USA and Middle East is located in Portugal, in an Island and yesterday all F-16`s went away and I hope they blast Afghanistam in pieces!!!
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12 September 2001, 19:36 GMT
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Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Cybeross
(Web Page)
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The A-Bomb!?!?! are you crazy? As much as this act is uncalled for, such is the extreme of "nuking" the enemy. That is, if we even FIND a definitive enemy. The weapons of this world today are so strong that we can no longer cling to foolish nationalism. Just like cavemen formed clans, the clans formed tribes, the tribes formed cities, and the cities formed nations, now is the time that we forget this bull**** and become a PLANET. If we start a nuclear war, it is very likely that the whole world as we know it will be destroyed. Nuclear winter could kill everyone on this planet, no matter which country you are from. So I suggest a more peaceful means to solve this problem. For starters, let's figure out why people would hate U.S (cocky jerks that they are) and more importantly, how the U.S can improve relations with these countries so these terrible incidents don't happen again...
My 2 cents, (btw, i'm an american, so don't think that i have no compassion. I just tell the truth.)
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12 September 2001, 22:16 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The word 'God'
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Kane_82586
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Oh please....Palestinians don't have as much resources as Israelis because ISRAEL IS A NATION! Ethnic groups within nations can't possibly engage in trade or business with other countries. They are just people within Israel, some of whom use what money they have to further their anti-Jewish goals. I think that Israel is the true victim, though both sides have obviously gone too far. Israel is a nation whose sovereignty is accepted by every major country. The Palestinians have no right to dispute this with Israel. The Palestinians started the whole conflict when several Arab nations attacked Israel just days after its independence was declared. The Jews have been hated ever since their emergence as a race. Just look at their horrible treatment by the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Nazis, and now Palestinians. Why these people hate Jews, I don't know, but somebody needs to stand up for them.
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15 September 2001, 18:50 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Jacob Drexler
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"The lives of people must come before religion" This is a great line because it demonstrates your amazing lack of understanding. If a person truly, truly mind you, believes with all his heart, soul and mind in a religion, he will put everything secondary to it. I say, without shame or reservation, that I would do ANYTHING that my god asked me to. I admit that I am a Christian, so my views are a little biased, but I get so sick of society saying "religion is dead" and "abortion is okay becasue a fetus isn't really alive" and especially with the darwinism (a religion because there is no solid proof) being taught in "secular" schools. I did get a little angry while typing that last bit, and there is more than a little hyperbole mixed in there.
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15 September 2001, 08:37 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Jacob Drexler
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But God and religion are right in the middle of this issue! You cannot discuss the middle east without bringing in at least some reference to religion. Down through all of history, mankind's home has been between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (more or less where Iraq is now). The region stretching from Italy in the west, Egypt in the south, Iran in the west, and France-Poland in the north is the only place on Earth that is talked about in Scripture. There are, if I'm not mistaken, a few mentions of other locations, but not very many. I am so sick of the idea that everything is OK, as long as it works for you. Well, pornography works for Joe Schmoe over there, so porn is ok? This guy thinks that paligamy is a good idea, so that's ok? I think that my neighbor doesn't deserve to live, so now I get to kill him, right? Because it's right for me, now I shouldn't have to go to prison. Is that right? Is our society in such a sorry state that we're willing to look the other way on issues like this? I was watching prime time tv the other night and saw a Victoria's Secret commercial. For those of you who don't know, this particular commercial featured model, wearing a bra and panties, sitting on a chair and twisting her body around in synch with the music. This was at 8:00 !! How are little kids going to react when they see this? "Oh, I saw an almost naked lady on TV, so it must be ok to look at these magazines!" I don't want to live in that culture.
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19 September 2001, 07:05 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Tse Tse
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Isreal uses US weapons. You think that if Americans pull the trigger instead of Iraeli, things would be different?
Besides, who started the problems in the Middle-East? If you think it were the Palestinians, then, believe me, you're quite wrong.
Then, it looks like you really want war. I hope you said that in an act of rage, because if it ever comes to war, there will be no place to hide, not for you, not for me.
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13 September 2001, 20:12 GMT
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Re: The High Price of Freedom
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David
(Web Page)
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Are you saying that if God had decided to love only the Egyptians instead, he would have allowed the Israelites to continue in slavery? The Egyptians didn't worship God, so why would God bless them? He commanded them, through Moses, to "let my people go". He was patient with the Egyptians, and gave them warnings before each plague. When they finally did drive the Israelites out, Pharaoh later changed his mind (once again) and pursued them. Because of their continued disobedience to God, and NOT because God only loved the Israelites and wanted revenge, he destroyed the Egyptian army that was pursuing them. "The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen -- the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea. Not one of them survived." God does not continue to bless a people who turn away from him. The story of Israel shows how they were constantly turning away from God facing the consequences for it. Also, God did not choose only one people, but everyone when he sent Jesus. The whole nature of the relationship between man and God changed. Since everyone has sinned, there is a non-crossable gap between them because the wages of sin is death. One a certain day, the priest would go into the Holy of Hollies, where the Ark of the Covenant was, to make atonement on behalf of the people. The priest could not be defiled in any way or he would die when he entered (because he was entering the presence of God). The sacrifices had to be pure and the best the people had to offer. Anything impure would not work. The people did not have direct access to God, because the people were not clean. This all changed when Jesus died.
"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom."
The heavy curtain that separated God from the people was literally torn in half. This was a very heavy curtain, and it would have been quite loud. He was literally the perfect sacrifice, and now we all have access to God through the Holy Spirit. That is why the curtain split; there was no longer any separation. So you're right, you can become a Christian if you aren't Israeli.
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14 September 2001, 21:34 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Jacob Drexler
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Firstly, there is a God. I know because I spoke with Him this morning. Secondly, you are more right than you know. The Israelites have had some of the worst times in history. They've also had some of the best. Slavery in Egypt, then they're released. Promised land full of powerful armies, God paves the way and the Israelites win battle after battle. Evil King and Israel suffers, God puts in a King after his own heart and Israel prospers. The previous goes on for quite a while, back and forth, back and forth. Exile in Babylon, God reclaims them. Messiah walks in their midst and they miss Him, God is still available for heaven reservations. The Holocaust, God allows enough of His people to survive to continue the race and He gives them back Israel to boot. I could go on for days, but you get the idea.
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19 September 2001, 07:19 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Jacob Drexler
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God is a god of love, not neccesarily a god of peace. Love and peace are not the same. God does love all humanity more than anybody can even begin to fathom. But, He also gets angry. The wrath of a human, that's nothing, the wrath of the all-mighty God, it's terrible. God gave 400 years and 10 chances. If you gave someone 40 days to give something like a CD back to you, then you gave 10 MORE days after that and they still didn't give it back, wouldn't you be a little steamed? And God did not go out and slaughter half of Egypt, He made a way for His people to escape and the Egyptians, seeing even that the sea was held back by something, decided to pursue. God was doing nothing more than protecting His people from death. I'm not saying that the Egyptians were in the wrong place at the wrong time and that God is innocent of that, but I'm also not going to tell Him that He's guilty. This will not sound very good, coming from a Chrsitian, but I'm waiting for the day when we all get to heaven and I watch people like Sigmund Freud, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Karl Marx, and Emperor Nero drop in absolute surrender to the King of all creation. I know that it's a little petty, maybe, and all, but I can't wait.
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15 September 2001, 09:06 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Jacob Drexler
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How would you get your people back after 400 years? God tried talking ("Let my people go!" Exodus 5:1). He sent a couple of harless plagues (3 days of complete darkness Exodus 10:21-23). Then He delivered His ultimatum ("This is what the Lord says: 'About midnight I will go throughtout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn of Pharoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her handmill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well...'" Exodus 11:4-5 NIV). God gave warning, and still Pharoh refused to listen. After that, Pharoh let them go, but pursued them. God opened a path through the Red Sea and Pharoh still followed. Then God let the sea fall back, on top of Pharoh's Chariots. How could this have happened differently? If Pharoh had been a little less stubborn. Maybe God did kill many innocents. But if He did, I'm not going to call Him on it.
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19 September 2001, 07:29 GMT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The High Price of Freedom
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Tse Tse
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With this I apologize to everybody who felt hurt by my comments. It has not been my intention to do that, although I understand that some of my words were a bit rude. My sole purpose was to make you think about it, about last week accidents, about the Middle-East. Probably most of you are still to young to understand.
So I'm not explaining what I think about it, whether that is right or not, because that would require me to explain the whole 20th century. You must know things don't happen just because, just without a reason. Last tuesday attacks are consequences of many other acts in the past.
I wanted to make you criticize what you heard from the media, from the government, from what others tell you. It was not my intention to abandon your belief, to make a fool of you for what you believe. I just wanted you to reflect it all, make you think about.
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16 September 2001, 21:30 GMT
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