Who in the world would be this obnoxious! I'm sure there are much more effective ways of hurting the U.S. without such violence!

You see, if these people were actually Middle Eastern poeple led by Osama Bin Laden, then they actually believe that they go to heaven for killing Christians.I think this is still absurd even though I am an atheist.It is in the K'oran that they consider it good to kill Christians.So, they don't care if they die in the process.That is why there are so many suicide bombings by Pakistani's and the like.I say we just drop an atom bomb on them and let them put themselves back together.Let's face it, our president is a moron and I didn't catch his speech from yesterday, so could someone tell me what it was about?

No, you must understand, Islam in general does NOT condone the killing of anybody. It’s just some of the crazy sects that do.

In fact, the Koran says that killing another person is a most unholy sin, and that anyone who does so cannot enter Paradise.

However, there are those who believe that they are not killing when they do a suicide bombing, but only becoming a martyr for their religion.

It is a sad time indeed for America, and for the world.

No matter what faith we all are, I say it is time to pray to God or Allah that we can resolve this without the loss of any more innocent lives. Hopefully it isn't already too late.

The problem isn't really what the Q'oran does or does not say, it show some people interpret it. Just like the Bible, there are some who have their own downright crazy interpretations. And if they gain followers, then it can get messy.

Dropping an A-bomb? How are we going to be better? We'd kill innocents too and just start a war.

Osama bin laden (even though not a country) has already declared war on the united states. he has said he is at war with the US. so technically we are already at war. (you're right.. dropping an A-bomb would start a war with another country [unless they want it too])

I think dropping an a-bomb would make us just as bad as the terrorists who attacked us, because many innocent civilians will die, and it wont benefit us any way. We should go after bin laden but not with an a-bomb.

People!

We don´t need an A-Bomb! A normal, or a few normal ones will do! A-Bombs also are so unhealthy and huge that they will infect all the countries around the impact. Including our allies.

>>How are we going to be better?

It's kind of like the death penalty thing "Why should we put these criminals to deaty - it's the same as stooping to their level". No it's not. It shows a respect for life. There are plenty of places in the bible that mention the death penalty:

"Whoever sheds a man's blood, by a man his blood shall be shed" - Genesis 9:6

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." -Exodus 21:12
"Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death." -Numbers 35:31

"So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it." -Numbers 35:33



>>We'd kill innocents too

Of course we would. But stop and consider all the innocents killed by a group of disturbed terrorists flying commercial planes into our buildings.

Think of the bombs we (The US) dropped on Japan. Many people died. The effects of dropping those bombs are still manifesting themselves today. But it stopped a war.


No matter what happens, I think Bush will make the right decision. If that means nuclear war, then so be it.

You realize the Bible only says things like that in the Old Testament?

Now, I'm not the most spiritual or religious person in the world, but take a look at Jesus' teachings!

Turn the other cheek. Love and have compassion for your enemies.

Perhaps it's not justice. But then, perhaps justice is not fair either.

This must sound familiar to all of you, but I think it has a certain truth about, Religion brings on hate, because there are allways people who think one religion is better than another religion.
People should be free about which religion they want to choose. Unfortunatly when some incredibly stupid Palestinian's on the tv are yelling we have done this in the name of Allah then some people take this an impuls to hurt arab-amaricans. On it self a very stupid kind of reasoning ofcourse. But after all these years after what has happened in the past, then why can't people still not understand that if certain people of a certain religion are saying stupid things this does not apply to everybody from that country, which is evident this happens...

It's all incredibly incredibly sad and I am still can't believe that an actuall plain deliberatly crashed into a building, I can't help but think about those people who were even alive after the initial plain crash, it's incredibly sad.

The Taliban and in particular Osama Bin Laden should be entirely wiped out!!!

Just by mentioning the Bible doesn't mean were instantly talking religion at all. God is love, and I'm sure he is in control of this whole situation. Consider knowing the Bible a relationship with God - not religion. Even George Bush is a Christian. Notice how he quoted from Psalm 22 while addressing Americans, and his deep faith (with actually isn't ver publicized)? We're all in the same boat, and God can show our leaders how to deal with this awful act of terrorism.

I'm sorry if I offend any people, since I don't think this is the time to consider these talks. But you say this is all in the boat of god and that god is a loving being. But how can you ever explain what happened, by saying god works in mysterious ways??

When talking about the bible you most certainly DO talk about religion, because people who read the bible believe in Jesus Christ, and not in Allah or Buddha or whatever.

I know that America is a very religious country, and therefor it is perfectly understandable that Bush would indeed qoute from the Bible.

"But how can you ever explain what happened, by saying god works in mysterious ways??"

How proud of a people are we?

"Yes, he humbled you by letting you go hungry and then feeding you with manna, a food previously unknown to you and your ancestors. He did it to teach you that people need more than bread for their life; real life comes by feeding on every word of the LORD."
Deuteronomy 8:3

"For the proud will be humbled, but the humble will be honored."
Luke 14:11

"But how can you ever explain what happened, by saying god works in mysterious ways?"

There's a featured article over at www.everystudent.com that deals with “Where is God in the Midst of Tragedy?”. Click on the web page link if you're interested.

If you’re too lazy to look, here’s part of it:

God has created humanity with the ability to choose. This means that we are not forced into a relationship with Him. He allows us to reject Him and to commit other evil acts as well. He could force us to be loving. He could force us to be good. But then what kind of relationship would we have with Him? It would not be a relationship at all, but a forced, absolutely controlled obedience. Instead He gave us the human dignity of free will.

Naturally, we cry from the depths of our souls..."But God, how could You let something of this magnitude happen?"

How would we want God to act? Do we want Him to control the actions of people? In the case of dealing with a terrorist attack, what could possibly be an acceptable number of deaths for God to allow?! Would we feel better if God allowed only the murder of hundreds? Would we rather God allowed only the death of one person? Yet if God would prevent the murder of even one person, there is no longer freedom to choose. People choose to ignore God, to defy God, to go their own way and commit horrible acts against others.

You're going one step further than I was aiming for in my message. From what you say in your reply is that there is a God and you quistion what he should do.

I'm saying; proof that there is a God. If in a book says you must do this and that, then I can't understand how you can just blindly do it.


Let's get one thing straight; if you want to believe that's fine, no problem. It's just that the other day I was reading a piece in the newspaper, about the attacks, and the topic of religion came up (unsurprisingly) and there was a letter from an Christian woman, who made a lot of comparisons between the Bible and the Koran and came to the conclusion that the Koran and Moslims brought nothing but bad things to this world.

These are things which anger me very very much, who does she think she is to decide what is good or bad?!
But think further for one second... how would she come to that conclusion, surely it was from what was written in the bible.

Then the next thing, I think believers only believe because their parents believe, not because they chose to. Then you can say nobody forced you, but if you have been brought up with the bible day in and day out it comes down to the same thing doesn't it?

Yes, the argument here is that we are no longer under the law, but grace. However, that first verse mentioned above, "whoever sheds man's blood" is God's covenent with Noah (mankind), not Israel specifically. This implies that we are still under it. Also, Jesus came "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law". An NT verse pertaining to this is below.

"For he [the government] is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
Romans 13:4

Even if the government is not totally righteous, he is still "God's servant" and dishes out justice and punishment. God does not want to destroy anyone, He is love, but people bring his wrath by their own evil. However, he does forgive, and we should too. But justice should be done as a warning and example to others so that they might turn from their evil.

Don't think of any violence against any people, even though they are killers. They just think they serve God by doing that. They're not, but, that's their thinking. Maybe you know, Apostle Paul was killing christians thinking he was serving God. One day, Jesus changed him... Ben Laden can be changed. Do you wanna get a WW3 ? responding by violence is not the good solution. Pray that God may change this. You're maybe not christian, but, if you pray, that will be good for all. When you see that all changed, you'll think that God heard you. God bless you and your pray, and may he change ben laden.

You're right, we should all pray for Ben Laden, but it's hard to prey for someone who is responsible for so much bloodshed. A crime has been committed, and it is up to our President to see that justice is carried out. Things would be much easier if it was another country. As it is there is no easy way to strike back without killing even more innocent people. It is tempting to strike back in revenge, but such a strike would only cause more suffering. Remember that God can turn any bad event into something that brings Him glory. He used Columbine to witness to millions around the world. Maybe we needed a wake-up call or something. We should pray for Ben Laden, but we should also pray for our leaders to make wise decisions. This is obviously a very tense situation, and America needs to handle it in a way that is best for everyone. Side note: I am a Christian, and I do hope that Ben Laden can come to know Christ, but that does not mean that he should not stand trial for what he has done. People can change, but they still need to face consequences for their actions. If this means some targeted US air raid, so be it. His personal relationship with Christ is his own responsibility. This man is an enemy of humanity, and it is still our responsibility to remove him if we can. It really saddened me to hear reports about Palestinians cheering over this incident. Someone reading this might have known one of those who died. Somewhere in the world, entire crowds of people are actually celebrating their death. It just makes me sick.

i agree.. it's definately not something to celebrate over, however, stuff like this is happening to them on a daily basis. (oviously not this extreme)... but the US helps press against them. (the sad thing is that the US is responsible for not having an international definition of terrorism... [reason being that the US does terrorist acts itself, such as assassinating the chilean guy, and the iranian guy])

Kill the bastard. kill him kill him kill him!
I don't care if it is against my faith to judge people, I don't care, I'm human and imperfect and I would honsetly kill this man with my bare hands if given the opportunity to do so. I don't want him to convert, I want him to die a terrible death and burn for eternity in the deepest darkest pits of hell whilst demons tear at his flesh.
I am not a violent man, I always avoid a fight, but now I demand blood.

Ditto! If we kill him, he will no longer be able to cause harm, and his organization will fall!

I agree. However, it must be done quietly, carefully and in absolute secrecy. He simply needs to fade away. If he is imprisoned, or traces of murder are left behind, he will become a martyr and his followers will become more fervent.

Well, how on earth are you going to do that? You think his followers wouldn't notice? You think there wouldn't be any successor? Exactly the same thing happent with Jesus of Nazareth. They killed him, but did his followers fade away? The whole crazy world started following him.

Osama bin Laden has a strong network all over the world, which stands on its own. Compare it to the Internet. It's a web so big, that if you blow away one part, the rest keeps working and doesn't even notice (in a way that they would fall apart).

So taking away bin Laden isn't really the solution.

Also, with a more contemporary example; Orwell tried to show that if you make martyrs out of your enemies, then your enemies simply can't be defeated.

However, I find that it would be impossible not to deal with whomever we choose to attack as martyrs.

I'd have to disagree with your idea. First of all, according to Christian faith, if Jesus wasnt really God, then killing him would have been the end of Christianity. Seriously, you think the whole world would have followed him if he was a regular guy?. I know I wouldnt have. As for bin laden, yes i think he might have a successor, but even if that was the case, killing him would weaken the terrorists at least for some time. But I think we should not only go after bin laden but also kill the major leaders of his terrorist faction, and go after all the terrorists that we can find. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

He wasn't a regular guy, simply because the whole world followed him, but, for me at least, he was a man of flesh and blood.

Obviously we see things different, so let's just take another example. Something that fits better to your "go after all the terrorists that we can find".

About burning witches. For centuries people were afraid of witches, because they thought they had something to do with the devil. So they hunted down every woman which they suspected of witchcraft. Did it help? Witches still exist today, so I guess not.
And this is exactly the same as you wanting to hunt down all terrorists. That's just impossible, as with the witches.

Now I know you can't compare witches and terrorists. Witches are good and have always been, and terrorists obviously aren't. It's just the reaction of people against them.

How are witches good?

"..Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servents masquerade as servents of righteousness." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

Actually, witches are scientists. They know a lot about nature and its power, what each plant does. Then they coupled that to magic. They cured sick people. Actually you can compare them to the druids in the ancient celtic world.
They had nothing to do with the devil. But the church said they were heretics and danced with the devil and so people feared them. (resulting in fairy tales as Hansel and Gretel,...)

There are so called "evil witches", but as with "evil christians", which you can't call christians, you can't call them witches.

Killing Bin Laden would have a similar effect to Mickey's breaking the brooms in Fantasia: everyone under him would become more of a threat and more willing to do the drastic, and they will be more spread-out and harder to find. Bin Laden himself has said that if we kill him, we will end up with thousands of Bin Ladens. Killing him won't work unless we find everyone else in his network.

Remember Saul?

Exactly! The bible was written when there was no terrorism. At least by new standards. I´m not anti-religion, but, you can´t use the bible in this case.

Unless there is a line "When your fellow man sheds the blood of 10,000´s love him" there is no reason to follow it in this case. We need a 21st century supplement.

I strongly disagree. Read Romans chapter 13.

Ok, that was a quick reply, but I'll try to summarize what I meant. You should still refer to the Bible before you claim that it does not apply.

The Bible says, “The commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not covet,’ and whatever other commandments there may be, are summed up into one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

Christian or not, you have to admit that that makes since. Make no mistake though, murder is still wrong. It is just not _our_ place to “get back” because we are not the authority:

“The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”

You cannot say that the Bible does not apply, because it does.

Yes, the general rules of mankind still apply. But acccording to the bible we can´t perform any retalitory attacks because we should not kill. Get my point?

There is a difference between killing someone and murdering someone. The Bible does condone capital punishment:

"And for each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." - Genesis 9:5-6

Well, you definitely know the Bible. But seriously, I think were getting off track here. The Bible doesnt approve or forbid capital punishment or military warfare, and I'm no Bible expert, but I do know it says wars will happen, and if this is a start of WW3, so be it. Anyway, if bin laden is behind all this, then he deserves to die.

That's not totally true. While it is most important to love everyone and to forgive everyone, there do come times when people forfeit there right to live their life.

5) "And murder is forbidden. Animals that kill people must die, and any person who murders must be killed.
6) Yes, you must execute anyone who murders another person, for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God's image."

Genisis 9:5,6

Its too bad, though, because an american can not kill him without facing a court trial, and he cannot be killed under a government order because it would be unconstitutional. So he must be tried in a court and found guilty, then and only then can a judge give a go-ahead for a painful death. One solution, however, would be for the president to declare martial law; although that would be rather chaotic...

I'm sorry but, that guy deserves to die. His chance for knowing Christ will not be in this lifetime. I don't even think a man capable of doing all of these horrid things could turn around and become a Christian.

Yeah, you think that he have to be killed. But we have to pray always because all the people even if he was a serial killer and even more a terrorist as bin laden can change ! This is the faith that christians have to live with. Because you'll understand, if he accept Jesus, he will certainly change also his mind. And he will also accept that he has done such bad things that cannot be repaid. He will accept to die if all the people want this, but I think that killing him will not repair anything. You'll say that you can save many other people by killing him, but if he really changed, that doesn't matter ! Do you think its a dream ? Its my pray. And I think we also need to pray that God may guide our leaders. And : Jesus killed no people, he loved them. The next time he comes, it will not be so lovely, so be careful, take care of your hearts living only in the word of God. And please read the bible before saying anything bad against his Holy Word. You should know what he say before criticizing. All people can change. This is the faith. (in God, I mean, all people can be changed by the powerful hand of God.) And if God choose to punish bin laden, he will, but we cannot, we cannot judge him (we're not pure to judge him). So, let Him do what he want. But pray...

So he becomes Christian and starts killing Muslims. How is that any better?

Christians don't kill Muslims in terrorist acts.

No, even worse, they kill their own people in terrorist acts. Look at Ireland.

If anyone who kills another person calls themself Muslim OR Christian, they are only kidding themselves.

define "Christian" for me

"Believing, professing, or belonging to the religion of Christ" (OED).

Textbook definition aside, being a Christian means having a personal relationship with Christ. While we were all sinners and hated Him, He still loved us enough to die for us. This unconditional love is beyond description. Who were we to deserve it? Nothing we have is worth anything. Will anything we have still be with us twenty, fifty years from now? Nothing I have is really worth anything. Pride is an evil enemy that blinds people to the truth. Friends grow old and die, bad things happen (terrorist attacks), but at the end of the day, God is still there. How many people on the 11’th went in to work like they usually did? None of them suspected that it would be their last day alive. How many thousands of people are going to hell because of this attack; people who had no hope? I cry when I think about it. Nothing they had, no amount of money, awards, or accomplishments mattered in the end. I love Jesus because of the unconditional love that he has toward me, and I want to live my life in a way that’s pleasing to Him. THAT is what being a Christian means. Last weekend, I heard a testimony from someone not much older than me, who a year ago was struggling with issues about Christ. He said that he thought Christians were weird nerds who sing praise songs. And who wouldn’t think that? But God used a guest speaker at one of Campus Crusade’s weekly meetings to reach him and he accepted Christ. Has this made him into a nerd? Absolutely not! I wasn’t in a position to know him last year (this being my first year at UCF), but I wish I had been, because he’s the type of person I can really respect. I challenge you all to at least give God a chance. If you’re in college, then make time to go to a few of the Campus Crusade (or other related) meetings for a few weeks. It will only take a few hours out of your schedule, and it might just change your life. Get to know some of the people involved. Judge firsthand if the people you meet are any worse for being Christians than other people you have already met elsewhere. After all, there’s nothing weird about wanting to be informed or make friends. But at least give it a chance. Just like the victims in the attack, you never really know when it will be too late.

Compare number of war crimes in Bosnia caused by ortodox christian Serbs, catolic Croats and islamic Bosniaks. Just one informations: Den Haag registered about
530 concentration camps organized by Serbs,
100 by Croats and
4 by Bosniaks.

You will say: OK, this was war, this is not terrorism. But now to many refugees occured that their houses were again destroyed when they returned.

By the way, the most peaceful, prosperable and safest period on Balcan peninsula was under goverment of nonreligious communists.

Let me clarify what I meant. The word Christian means a follower of Christ. Therefore, anyone who calls themselves a follower of Christ and is a terrorist at the same time, is a liar. I am sure the same goes for Islam.

We should pray for everyone even the people behind this terrible thing.

<<Because you'll understand, if he accept Jesus, he will certainly change also his mind.>>

I think you are under some great illusions. After a certain point, no one will change. It would be nice if Bin Laden would change, of course, but that is impossible.

Why won't Bin Laden change? A guard in a cummunist prison heard the gospel and accepted it RIGHT THEN AND THERE! Even though it meant death for him and probably for his family, he accepted it.

IMHO, we should be discussing terrorism, not God, so I am not participating in this discussion any more.

Good for you

Ever wondered why some people celebrated at first? (e.g. Palestinians)

(then click the link above)

http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/
~wm/PAP/wm-pont.html

I totally agree....we should be praying for our government, and for Bin-Laden. But he also needs to be brought to justice. The key here is making this a quest for justice, not revenge. God has established our governmental systems over us here on earth, and we are to obey them, and there are consequences for disobedience. But Justice does not involve launching nuclear attacks at another country, and slaughtering thousands more innnocent civilians. As Christians in America at a time like this, we should be praying for our leaders and for all of those who are involved in this.

Bin Laden won't change! That is just plain foolish for a lack of better words! For years he's been doing evil things, thinking we would be too kind of a nation to do anything back. He's been hiding behind women and children, thinking that would stop us from killing him. It has. Our country refuses to look at the big picture and realize that their lives are worth his annihilation. HOWEVER, we do not even know if it was him that was behind this. He might say it, but what if he's not? We can't just wipe that country off the map yet (well... you know what I mean). There is nothing we can do right now. If we search for a simple scapegoat, we will lose the trust of many people. They only think it might be him right now.

The only thing I can say for sure is that war has already been declared on us. We will retaliate, but no one, not even our incompetent president, knows just how. All we can do is hope that we find out who it was so we can put 'em in their place.

Even if it wasn't Ben Laden he's done enough and killed enough to be killed. It's obvious he won't stop terrorizing the U.S. and killing him and anyone hiding or protecting him would only save lives in the future

I completly agree that Bin Laden will not change his ways. some say this is the start of world war 3; i myself do not know. i have always liked to believe that tragic prophesys can go either way. Yes; we could bring in troops, attack afganistan (who very probably did this), kill bin laden...but i also have to think if it is morally right to do so. it's written in practiacally every religious cornerstone book (The Bible, for one) that killing people, for nomatter what reason, is wrong. clearly many forign states..well, every country, at some point, has forgotten this. as a christian, i can't just go with the option of all out invasion automatically. i have to try to think if there is another way.
Therefore, i've been thinking, and i remembered the explosions and fighting we've seen in afganistan involving the anti-hammas (not hammas, can't think of religious government power's name) "freedom fighters", many of whom are trying to break free of the terrible restraints imposed by their Islamic government and would welcome some "american" ideals. i believe that if there is any way to gain retribution for the lives lost, while still trying to avoid killing many people, these anti-islamic government groups may be an answer. i would support allowing them to continue in their fight without intervening, but frankly, i don't think this is plausible. instead of invading and overthrowing the government, why not assist and ally with these freedom fighters, if we must fight at all? this is just an idea, but i think that before we go and kill in return for the terrible murder of our own, we sould at least concider alternatives. Untill then, all i can do is watch and pray, that our leaders might have the wisdom and the strength to carry out what they must do, and in the end do what is right. I can only rest assured in the knowledge that since i have put this into God's hands, everything will altimately turn out alright. Thanks for reading.

You say you are a Christian and the Bible says that killing is wrong no matter what. Well, I too am a Christian, and I read my Bible. Ecclesiastes says there is a time to kill, and many times throughout the Bible God leads his armies to victory in war, as well as encouraging specific people, such as the judges, to kill enemy kings and generals. God himself also kills people, such as when he completely destroys enemy armies, or when he struck down Ananias and Sapphira. This does not, of course, justify the terrorist attacks, but if there ever was a time to kill, this is it. Bin Laden (or whoever) could change his ways, but he still must be responsible for his murderous actions. We must stop him to save countless future lives.

You're right when you say that God killed some (maybe many for humanists) people. But remind that he is love, and if he kills, he chooses to take lives, it's that there's no alternative. God wanted Hebrews to kill all the other people who were living near them. Why ? Isn't it immoral to kill so many people ? God told the Hebrews to do so because if they didn't, they would be temptated to adore other gods. That was satan. When Satan is near you, you have to kill him before he use you. Even if they're also humans. And God told Hebrews to kill others. Christians who kill are not really Christians. They're using the name of Jesus for themselves, and God do not like that. "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." "A new command I give you : Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another". This new command show that Christians must not fight themselves because if they do, they are not christians. Bin Laden is doing like the Pape. He said to his warriors that if you die for Allah, you'll go to heaven. The Pape said the same thing for the 'Croisés'. We know now that it was for his only advantage, not for God as it was said.
God will not let all these terrorists unpunished but if he want to stop them, he will. We have to pray always that the wisdom of the Holy Spirit may guide our leaders. And Bin Laden changed ! AMEN

I respect your belief, but I have to say this.

You say bin Laden told his people to kill in the name of Allah. You say the Pope told his people to kill in the name of God. Couldn't it also be that the same counts for the Hebrews, that they were told to kill in the name of their God, that it was for their own advantage? The only difference is that, what the Pope or bin Laden does, isn't written in a holy script and what happent with Hebrews, is. But the Bible has been written by humans of flesh and blood. And stories have been written down long time after the facts and could therefore be twisted.

Just asking your opinion on this.

1) Bible translations:
In recent times, archeologists found copies
of books of the bible, that were dated only
a few decades after the original book was
written, and in the original language. A comparison
of these with the texts we have now, show that
there are only minor changes in the text in the last
3500 to 2000 years, so the bible has been
accurately passed down, and with the abovementioned
texts, that are in the original language, an even
more accurate translation of the bible has been
made. There are also about 11 000 copies of bible
texts, of which comparative studies provide
real accurate representations of the original
text.

2) The people that inhabited the land of canaan before
Jehovah God gave the land to the jews did terrible
things for their belief:
e.g.: They killed their first born children in a
sacrifice to their gods. Furthermore, incest and
bestiality were common with these people.
Archeologist who studied the remains of these
people were surprised that Jehovah God didn't
order their destruction earlier.

The canaanites had gotten 400 years time to change
their detestable habits from the time Abraham was
in the country, until the Israelites finally
extinguished them. Furthermore, if some of the
canaanites chose to give up their practices, they
were spared. Rachab, and the Gibeonites are examples
of this.

3) As for the bible written by people of flesh and
blood:
Although this is true, 2 Timothy 3:16 says:
"All scripture is inspired of god ....."
You can tell this is true because prophecies in
for example the book Daniel (1) about the rising of
the countries of Medo-Persia and Greece have come
true.


Footnote (1):
Although some argue that Daniel was written in a
time that Greece was already a world power,
the book provides us with details about the
babylonian culture that could only be known to
one that has actually been there, and not by an
impostor 200 years later.
Example of this is the addendance of women on
the celebrations given by the babylonian rulers.
(In the time that some argue Daniel was written,
it was unheard of that women would attend such
celebrations).

Ever notice that God is the #1 cause of death?

You are so right. Hes not gonna change. ITs not possible. HE needs to step up and let us take him down. And not hide like such a wuss. If he's such a big man after all.
That Dave dude needs to drop the christian stuff. AT least about Bin Laden. I'm not really that Christian myself, and I don't think killing is right, but this Bin LAden guy has to go.

Let me tell you a little something about some of the more extreme Islam sects (to which Bin Laden belongs):

Converting is punishable by death.

So, if Bin Laden is converted and wants to die, that's fine. Otherwise, you'd better pray for all of his followers to be converted too.

For me, I think he should be killed in the most painful way possible.

Also, it seems many people feel we should "nuke 'em". Keep in mind, that nuclear weapons were used twice, both in a period of a couple days. Twice in all history. Now, why haven't they been used since then? Because government leaders are not as STUPID as those who suggest that solution.

This can be won in a conventional way. Put a couple of carrier fleets into the Arabian Sea, place an embargo on Afganistan, while we bomb them to dust. Afganistan has few, if any submarines, so with fighter support (F-14's, Rafales, MiG 29M's, Harriers, etc.), the fleet would be safe (a few S-3 Viking and chopper ASW patrols to be on the safe side). In other words, launch a massive, international naval air assault before the ground war.

I'm reminded of a comment one of my friends made when the subject of how we would deal with the people responsible--twenty bikers kicking a little kid in an alley.

Afganistan is landlocked, and thus, has no submarines or any other kind of naval ships. As for weapons they could use to shoot down our fighters, there is the fear that we will fail just as the Soviets did. We must remember that WE supplied the Afganistan militias with Stinger SAMS during the Soviet invasion during the 80s. It was OUR missiles that shot down scores of Soviet Hind helicopers. If we get all the major countries behind us, their weapons stockpile will run out fast. The problem is what do you do after you bomb them. Invade? Try diplomacy?

Exactly. Only fundamentalist Islamic groups carry out the sort of attacks you always see on the news. Of course, you only see and hear about the twenty Muslims that walk into a crowded city street and blow themselves apart, but there are millions (more than one billion if I'm not mistaken) of Muslims throughout the entire world that are peaceful, godly men and women. It's the truth.

The horrible acts of violence carried out by fundamentalist Muslims are acts of jihad, a principle that they add to the five other Pillars of Islam (some of which every Christian could learn from). A jihad is a "holy war" that some Muslims find that they need to carry out in their lifetime. Why they feel the need to do this is truly beyond me. I hope that this never happens again.

9/11/01
REMEMBER

Note you stated, "Only fundamentalist Islamic groups carry out the sort of attacks . . ." And ". . .acts of violence carried out by fundamentalist Muslims are acts of jihad, a principle that they add to the five other Pillars of Islam (some of which every Christian could learn from). A jihad is a "holy war" that some Muslims find that they need to carry out in their lifetime." Now ether the so-called "fundametalists" are correct in there pactices or they are NOT "fundamentalists" to the islamic faith, as the "five pillars" of their faith are fundamentals of Islam. The term is misused in the media. The term "fundamentilst" originates with early to mid 20th century protestant christians regarding the essentials of the Christian faith. Muslems deny the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and His burial and resurrection on the third day. So they, Muslems are NOT "Fundamentlists" in the origial use of the term.

Misunderstanding and miscommunication, denial of ideas not understoodd and unreasonable hatred. Are at the roots of evil acts. Love for wealth and the hate of the wealth of others. And the lack of love for one's fellow human beings.

Possibly the most ethnocentric statement ever made.

The term "fundamentalist" can refer to a lot of things. In this case it refers to Muslims who take the symbolic teachings of the Koran literally (just as, for the sake of argument, Christian fundamentalists do with the Bible). Good grief, just because Western civlization once used "fundamentalist" to refer to something doesn't mean that that's the only meaning that the word can have.

Grow up. You're only trying to make yourself look smarter than me after I made an intelligent remark.

I don't think you got it. The term was used by the enemies of Christianity derogatorily and used as a derogatory term against others. I am a Christian and Fundamentilist when it comes to the Bible. Now if you think that has to do with race, you don't know what you are saying. Most who make fun of those who Believe the Bible "literally" don't know what is really believed. Most argruments are "straw man" arguments which are created so something that can be easily torn down.

It is no different than to allow the term "American" to mean something bad. I will not stand for it. Hay, just because the dictionary defines "Holy Father" as "Pope" doesn't mean I have to use the term that way!! John 17:11.

You can't see your own hatered by your remarks, "The term "fundamentalist" can refer to a lot of things. In this case it refers to Muslims who take the symbolic teachings of the Koran literally (just as, for the sake of argument, Christian fundamentalists do with the Bible)."

And it is mistake to suppose Muslems who do take their Holy Qur'an literally to be the same as the evil terrorists who may wrongly suppose what they do is according teachings of "true" Islam.

The real problem is one of truth. And those who hate truth.

Okay... let me clarify my statement.

I am not saying that all fundamentalists are bad. However, I might suggest expanding your horizons a little.

When I say "Muslim fundamentalist," I am reasonably confident that you are intelligent enough to infer that I am referring to the radical fundamentalist Muslims that constantly plot against the United States because of the oppression they believe we represent against their people (obviously, I was wrong in thinking that you would be able to infer that).

The Muslims that continuously attack the United States are scriptural "hard-liners"; they take every statement in the Koran literally. Since it is divinely inspired (inspired by the Angel Gabriel, who supposedly was relaying the words of God directly to Mohammed), I assume that some of the messages in it can be compared to the Bible. Let's just assume that, while reading the book of Leviticus (in which the laws are laid down for the conduct and worship of the Hebrews), every statement is taken literally. Some examples:

Lev 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
-Now, I'm sure that in your viewpoint, since you have stated yourself as a Biblical fundamentalist, all gays really should be killed.

Lev 20:18
"If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood."
-Another example, I'm sure, of things that you are completely in support of.

Anybody with a good head on their shoulders would know that these punishments aren't to be taken literally, but the crimes are (close examination of the scriptures will reveal that every time anybody screws up they usually worm their way out of punishment somehow through God's intervention). Now, imagine if similar divinely inspired writings (a.k.a. the Koran) were to be taken literally. Chaos would ensue.

Oh, wait, it already has!

9/11/01
REMEMBER

The point I am making is that I personally object to refering to Muslims as any kind of "fundamentalist" period. And further more to use the term to refer to terrorists who might be of the Islamic faith as "fundamentalists" is to use the term derogtatorily and suggests that all Muslims who take their Holy Qur'an literally in any are some kind of terroists. They would qualify as "fundamentalists" to apply the term to the Islamic faith.

Now you have side stepped my point by bring in other issues. The fact that the acts of male homosexuals is worthy of death. So is adultery. And the practice of what is

The bottom line is you don't understand these things. And by bring up these other issues only confuses the real issue of what is really right and matters of what is really true.

Jesus taught against individuals taking the Law into ones own hands. And as individual to return good for evil. (see Saint Matthews gospel account 5:38-42.) Now would you be dumb enough to suggest this means as country we shouldn't do anything to these terrorists? (see the Law Leviticus 24:17-22.)

My objection was your use of the term "fundametalist."

Um. An a-bomb? Who were you calling a moron again? I believe President Bush is perefectly capable of handeling this. Maybe he doesn't have as high an IQ as other presidents did, but at least he hasn't bombed any asperin factories yet, as the "honorable" Clinton did.

Well, now I think about it. Has president Bush ever done anything? (beside executing death penalties)

haha, good point

What are you talking about??? Bush has done very well, and his speech last night was very excellent.

A quote from his speech:

"...were more than acts of terror, they were acts of war."

These, I believe, are the words of a man who wants to start a war, but doesn't want to be called the one who started it. He's looking for an excuse to wipe away a country he doesn't like. But it would be the wrong way to react and you all know that.

Most of you believe bin Laden did it because that's the only name you've heard ever since the attack. What if he really didn't?

It all goes too fast, my opinion. Finding that car, arresting people,...all in one day?

Well, if Bush wanted to destroy "a little country he doesn't like," he could have already. Bush's actions show the opposite of what you claim. He is taking the time to be sure of what really happened and who is responsible, not just blowing something up for symbolic reasons.
As for the person who claimed Bush has not done anything, he got the government a little more out of our pocketbooks, a necessary step to starve off the Clinton recession; but that is almost academic in light of what this could do the economy.

No, he couldn't have done it already, so without a reason. The whole world would be so angry that he'd never have to show his face again.

Then again, it is true that he takes his time and considers all possible solutions. He also called the people to stay calm and not to attack any innocent american muslims, which I highly appreciate.

"...were more than acts of terror, they were acts of war."

Just as likely, it could be a threat to any nation harboring terrorists; if you were the leader of, e.g., Afganistan, would your try and call that a bluff --- when you know very well he _could_ blow you off the continent if he wanted? Your neighbor, Pakistan, seems to have folded already.

Even if the guy is an idiot (which he isn't), his advisors aren't!

You do realize that very few politicians actually write their own speeches, right? The president has a dedicated speech writer. In many cases, several different speeches are prepared, for situations which could have very different outcomes.

-(T)-(A)-(X)- -(C)-(U)-(T)-

-(R)-(U)-(I)-(N)-(E)-(D)- -(T)-(H)-(E)- -(E)-(C)-(O)-(N)-(O)-(M)-(Y)-



My 1 rupee (at a 50 to 1 conversion rate)

he didn't freeking ruin the economy... there is no way that he is responsible for this decline, it was just time for the economy to start going down.. he had just got in office a few months before the decline. (this might push the US into recession... which means more tax cuts!!!)

the economy was "slowing" months before the election ever took place. the problem has to do with everyone putting their money into the tech market, even though there was no way for any of those companies to survive. The real problem for the world's economy is what will happen because of this unthinkable crime that has been done to the United States.

Barrett,
I don't usually agree with your comments, but I must admit I agree whole heartedly on this one.

Why are so many (just within our own community) so quick so criticize and speak against leadership than to rush to the support of it? "United we stand, divided we fall" We didn't rise to power as a great nation because of our presidents but because of unity behind our presidents. Just because he (Mr. Bush) isn't the one that you (whoever) voted for doesn't mean you do what you can see him fail. Bottom line is if he fails we fail.

In closing I just want to say that I am a Christian who takes to pledge to our flag very seriously, "...one nation under God...".I also think it is totally AWESOME that Israel (God's chosen people) are sending aid and support to us.

JER-USA-LEM SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!

"executing death penalties"... pun intended?

BINGO!! an A-BOMB!!! but seriously... think about it... now it's 20K-50K in the WTC, next year it will be 30,000,000 in California with hijacked nuclear warheads (or even just small bombs on nuclear power plants)... NUKES HAVE BEEN STOLEN BEFORE!!! it is possible... just a few years ago one was missing or something... this bin laden guy needs to be gotten rid of.

>needs to be gotten rid of

So easy to say. For example there were countless tries to assassinate Fidel Castro and no one were successful.

Talking about Castro, have you seen his speech. Looked very pro-US to me.

Yeah, I found it strange too.
Maybe he wants to gain respect in this way.
Quite smart.

Well, not particularly ... even if Castro doesn't particularly like the United States, destroying five buildings and a few thousand people is still a rather horrible thing, no matter where it happens.

-- Nick and his two cents (to be promptly donated to the Red Cross)

Yes, that's true. I live in Uruguay, our President already expressed his condolences, as many others in south America, but the leader of the opposition (a communist biased) has expressed reject to this act of terror and his condolences to the nation of the USA. I wouldn’t get impressed if the small group of Uruguayan communists make a manifestation shaking American wraps instead of burning them. Many Argentineans reunited already at their most important monument at the center of Buenos Aires. You are not alone in the fight against terrorism, we must be all together. Just an anecdote, actually, I’m planning to donate money to the red cross at Amazon, the online shopping that any Uruguayan used until our government started to consider this as illegal imports, and started to apply real taxes to these and general online shopping packages. So, if an Uruguayan miss buying things at Amazon, they can donate very easily there(I hope many will), which is better than buying palms (the most imported thing until import taxes came).

It's not easy to get rid of someone like Bin Laden. He has bases everywhere. He probably has multiple bases in Afghanistan, so missile strikes will probably do no good. If the US overruns Afghanistan, he will probably run to another place. And if you kill him, someone else might take his place.

Well, we still hope it´s not 20K to 50K.

Nukes dont need to be STOLEN PER-SE, they can be CREATED from ANY radioactive material, The LESS MATERIAL USED (as small as a couple of grams)< the LARGER the EXPLOSION WILL BE. large atomic bombs have an Extremely SMALL blast radius, but a very powerful blast, leveling anything in its way. since bin laden does not conform to ethical standars as americans do, his technology has probably already surpassed our own...

i think you're an idiot (somone please correct me if i'm being an idiot) only a few countries have created an a-bomb, the US, Russian, and i think a couple other 1st world countries. there is no way he and his group of thugs hanging out in $10 tents can create a freeking A-bomb... it took the US several years to develope it.. and even the information on how to create one is very secret... go ahead.. i would like to see you go to a 3rd world country, and create an A-bomb using the resources and economy there.

Your list of countries suspected of having nuclear arsenals and/or programs is way out of date. Last I heard, it now includes one of the koreas, China, India, Pakistan, etc.

Not all --- or most --- are first world countries.

Besides chemical and biological weapons can do quite a bit of harm, and are quite a bit cheaper.

ok.. the point is that osama bin-laden, or any countries that harbor him, can create an A-bomb.

sorry 'bout that - ***can't*** create an A-bomb... btw, i agree, biological weapons can do a TON of damage also.

I have a close friend who is from the Middle East conflict zone, who said to me right after the incident:
"Oh, and don't blame the Middle East, that's just ignorant. Blame the few bad apples, that's perfectly OK."
I also find that the support from the online community is overwhelming. I was connected to a random person's Hotline server at the time of the 1st crash, and the Admin was broadcasting constant updates about the events every 10 seconds. This day of Infamy will be avenged.

May you and those you care about be safe, and well today, and in the difficult days to come. My heart goes out to everyone involved.

exactly

Islam does not condone the killing of innocents anymore than Christianity or Judaism does. Islam is a peaceful religion based on charity and doing good for your fellow man.

I do not percieve Islam as a violent religion due to the actions of some of its adherents. For example, in Ireland, Christians kill Christians over difference in belief. The perception of the rest of Christianity does not change, because people view extremists as extremists. Why people do not view Islam the same I will never understand.

Knight/Rocket's 4c.

People don't view Muslims the same way because Americans are afraid of people from other races, whether they want to believe it or not. It's an inborn form of racism based upon xenophobia (the fear of the unknown).

The racism is not inborn; it is taught, however indirectly, by a child's influences.

What I meant by 'inborn' is that people, as animals, are born with a fear of things they don't understand. Therefore, other cultures, societies, or races, are often feared, and thus hated. Unfortunate.

One thing that MUST not happen is a discrimination like WWII against the Japanese. After Pearl Harbor the Japanese who were LEGAL CITIZENS of America were herded into camps with barly adequate standerd of living. We MUST not do this. But anyone can interpet any religious book to condone killing, just look through the bible. It says that women are to obey their husbands. It says to kill athiests. Good for the bibal/K'oran. I don't care what some old book says, KILLING IS WRONG.

ANYWAY, don't say that all Muslims are bad. I've met a few who are as devestated as me.

And again, if there is a hell those who did this are going there

I agree with you on discrimination, but you are wrong about the Bible. So what if women are to obey their husbands? What does that have to do with killing or terrorism? That does not, by the way, mean that women should do things that are wrong just because their husbands say so, it just means for them to be submissive and accept his leadership. Also, nowhere in the Bible does it command us to kill atheists. If someone who is killed for some other reason just happens to be an atheist, that's completely different. People should understand the Bible before they bash it.

I think what he meant by the 'women are to obey their husbands' thing is that there are some things the Bible tells us to do that we don't anymore, simply because the times have changed and the rules don't always apply the same way anymore. In other words, he was using it as an example to support his point that we shouldn't kill people just because the Bible or K'oran says we should.

I agree with you on discrimination, but you are wrong about the Bible. So what if women are to obey their husbands? What does that have to do with killing or terrorism? That does not, by the way, mean that women should do things that are wrong just because their husbands say so, it just means for them to be submissive and accept his leadership. Also, nowhere in the Bible does it command us to kill atheists. If someone who is killed for some other reason just happens to be an atheist, that's completely different. People should understand the Bible before they bash it.
Also, those terrorists who did this are just as much sinners as we are! They did a horrible thing, but sin is sin in God's eyes.

I agree with you on discrimination, but you are wrong about the Bible. So what if women are to obey their husbands? What does that have to do with killing or terrorism? That does not, by the way, mean that women should do things that are wrong just because their husbands say so, it just means for them to be submissive and accept his leadership. Also, nowhere in the Bible does it command us to kill atheists. If someone who is killed for some other reason just happens to be an atheist, that's completely different. People should understand the Bible before they bash it. Also, those terrorists who did this are just as much sinners as we are! They did a horrible thing, but sin is sin in God's eyes.

Where does it say to "kill atheists" ?

The Koran doesn't tell people to kill Christians, nor is "Islam" synonymous with "terrorist". Unfortunately, a few radical extremists have made terrorism their business, but their being muslim is a coincidence, and does not give you or anyone else the right to brand Arab muslims as such, or to partake in the vandalism of mosques. You consider yourselves such an open minded people,but I've heard nothing else but racial slurs so far.

I can understand if your hatred was directed towards Tuesdays' terrorists, what happend was horrific, and,yes, some of the hijackers' have been identified as Saudi, but don't presume we're all like that. As a Christian arab who's lived among muslims for 18 yrs (FYI, it was in the U.A.E.), I know we're a peaceful race (you only hear from the loud ones!).I'm tired of being stopped in airports, or at a border, under the presumption that I could potentially hurt someone just BECAUSE of my nationality.

Bin Laden lives in Afghanistan, which is near Pakistan and Bangladesh, and is not considered Middle Eastern. While Bin Laden is originally from Saudia Arabia, the Saudi gov't exiled him awhile back (before my time I believe).

I don't know what to say about the past week..It is unbelievable to think that anyone would have such disregard for human life.