Survey posted 2000-02-27 20:36 by Andy.

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Computers such as the 89 and 92, with algebraic manipulation should be allowed on standardized tests. It's a computerized world in which we grow up. There are always computers and calculators now. The reason for all the advancements into science and technology is because calculators and computers allow scientists to free themselves up from having to solve problems so they can invent and create.

Second thing. Standardized tests are designed to not need the use of the calculator that often (especially PSAT's, SAT's, and SAT II). Therefore, it really isn't an issue. But, since the technology is there, why not use it.

Dark Ninja

P.S. I do think that calculators should be checked to make sure people aren't including any extra programs on them, though.

P.P.S Please visit the link to my site. It's actually a preview of things to come. (You must have Shockwave to view it.)

I agree. We live in the age of computers. If an engineer has to solve an algebra problem, i doubt he'll do it by hand. The same with all other jobs related to math.

I bet you ten bucks that any engineer had the skills to do it by hand if his graphing calculator was not available.

So do I, what's your point?

Exactly....

My point is that even though they probably would use a graphing calculator, they still need how to do it by hand. It's not enough to know that one can get a certain answer, one must know WHY that is the correct answer. If you don't, you'll never know how to use the math in practical ways to solve real life problems.

So. That's kind of expected. Certain functions on your calculator mean nothing to you if don't understand them without your calculator. Calculators are aids to help you with math. What you were saying is beside the point. A given, a prerequisite.

Thats not true! You don't have to know what slope or y intercept is. to find out what a graph looks like, all you have to do is plug it into y1=. You don't have to know how to solve an equation, you just have to plug it into the solver. You would HOPE they would know the basics behind what they are doing, but many of them just don't. I know about ten people in my Algebra 2 class that would be failing if there graphing calculator was taken from them. Calculators CAN be aids to help you do the math; they can also be machines that help you get around doing the math.

to graph an equation, you dont need to know what the y-intercept is nor do you need to know the what slope is.

Okay, I guess I'm to stupid to understand the point behind that post, please enlighten me, I have a hard time comprehending your logic.

The whole point of learning math is that you understand math. If you only know how to use your calculator, you will find yourself with a complete inability to solve problem types you've never seen before.

For example, in most calculus classes, you learn how to compute and differentiate polar curves. You also know how to find the center of mass of function curves. These are both things you can do very easily with a calculator, especially an 89. But what happens when your asked on your midterm to find the center of mass of a polar curve (a problem type which you probably hadn't seen before). Your calculator, suddenly, will have failed you. If you knew the in's and out's of the mathematical theory involved (which you would have to run up against if you didn't use differentiate[] and integrate[] functions on your calc), you would quickly come up with a method. But if you were calculator dependent, you would lose points. (note: this was an actual question on my Calc II midterm.)

What is really important in math is that you understand HOW it works. That's enough preaching for now.

That's because he/she would have to pass a test without a calculator to get that engineering degree.

here here. For once an enlightened opinion. A calculator is a tool. This tool can be used properly. Some of the opinions already expressed are saying that a CAS gives too much of an advantage. For the most part most functions that make calculators with CAS better than their non-CAS counterparts, are not even necessary on standardized tests. Every graphing calculator has an equation solver which is one of the main functions used. If you say ban CAS calculators from standardized tests what are you saying? It seems to me you are saying why not ban all graphing calculators. I personally own both a TI-86 and a TI-89 and it would be a shame to see the tools of our generation no longer being taught all because of the fact that you won't need it on the standardized test which may happen if you. We live in a technological age. knowledge of math is necessary however so too is a working knowledge of technology such as a calculator or a computer. CAS calculators are a permutation of that, the use of which mustn't be discouraged.

The fact is not all schools teach the use of graphing calculators. In my Algebra II class, we've only used them twice. You say knowledge of math is necessary. That is true. Plugging the math in to the equation solver of your ti86 (nice calculator, I have one as well) does not show that you know how to do the math. It merely shows that you know how to recopy the equation in a way that the calculor can compute to get the correct answer.

I agree, even though people could abuse a calculator to pass classes without knowing the basics, all calculators should be allowed. Hey, if you don't make an attempt to learn the basics your only hurting yourself, plus its more likely that in a job you will be using an electronic tool then doing it by hand, plus some of these tests are designed for your ability to use digital tools. I myself unlike some people don't use their calculator for things as simple as 10-8, main reason I do this is because it does take longer on a calculator (for me) then it does by remembering the pattern, another reason I solve most things mentally is because I don't want to loose my skills.

P.S. Heck, if it were allowed, I'd carry one of those very compact but powerful laptops around instead of a calculator, use VTI when I need calculator features. (Please nobody respond to this P.S., I can predict what I'll here, <it will be stolen>, <too expensive>, <laptops arn't as easy to carry around>, I'll stop here).

I agree that all calculators should be able to be used. Personally, on homework I do a couple of the problems without the calculator to make sure I know it, and then the rest I do with my calc. One of the best things about the 89, besides the advanced math (cheating) capabilities, is the history/home screen. I like being able to scroll up to get answers to earlier equations (like if a problem requires multiple equations)

Sorry, but I have to deny your request because I have to ask you something:
Who said that laptops aren't allowed? I am seriously considering getting one in the next year or two (When I am a junior or senior (in Highschool), and then I will have to make sure I have study halls in my schedule)

So what you are saying is that calculators with cheating capabilities should be allowed on standardized tests? Tests that decide on if one is allowed into college or given scholarships?!?

If you can still use the calc afterwards (in college or in a job), yes.
Also, they design many problems on standardized tests so that you can't just put in in a calculator.

if a person chooses to 'cheat' it will catch up to them sooner or later. Besides, as my Psych teacher would sat, your being an exterenal person and blaming everyone else and society for your and other people's problems sounds like you have a case of 'oprah-itus' what your actions are affaect your life, and by forcing someone to do menila tasks by hand will not solve your problems.

You are right that people who don't use the basics are only hurting themselves. Shouldn't there be something (a standardized test maybe?) that allows us to find out who knows the basics and who doesn't?

I disagree completely. Yes, calculator technologies are advancing rapidly, and yes, in the work force we will be using them more and more, and relying less and less on mathmatics by hand, but it is still important to learn how to do everything by hand first. A calculator should not be a black box wherein you can type "integral(x^2,x)" and get "(1/3)x^3" without knowing a) what you did and b) why you got the answer you did. If you use the tool without knowledge of the underlying principles, you will fail to respect those principles when you attempt to further your horizons -- and sooner or later, you will come across a function the Magical Wizard Box can't solve for you. I have a TI-89, but before I bought it I took calculus classes through multivariable differential equations and linear algebra. I think I would have lost a lot of insight into the mechanics of high-level math had I used, and depended, on the symbolic algebra routines in that calculator.

A standardized test is not the correct forum to press technology, but rather, understanding.

Actually, it'll probably give you (x^3)/3. I just thought I'd throw out that useless piece of information that someone is probably going to yell at me about.

True. It is good to learn the math concepts involved. But, if I am only going based solely on the question "Do you think calculators with computer algebra systems should be allowed on standardized tests?" then I would say they should. Like I said in my original post, the standardized tests are not calculator based, they are designed that way. So, I say let people use the calculator on the tests...for all the good it will do them. Especially if they don't learn the concepts in the first place.


Dark Ninja

For some reason, they will allow us to use an 89 on the calculus AP test but we can't use a 92. I'm planning on borrowing my friend's 89. He doesn't even need an 89. He's just in integrated math 1(9th Grade standard math class). I also don't understand why my school district has to phase out the regular algebra, geometry, etc classes. Next year, alg2 is gone. I am so glad i took algebra in sixth grade and took two math classes in eighth grade that way i could be way ahead of all that integrated crap.

The reason is because the 92 has a QWERTY keyboard.

How does a QWERTY keyboard help you in math?

I wonder how many times I've asked myself the same question...

I remember one person from a previous survery that said to get around that he merely removed the QWERTY keys from his ti-92.

I suppose that they are afraid that if you start using a calculator with a QWERTY, then you may start bringing a notebook computer to help you with your math...

You guessed it! They don't make any exceptions because then people will wonder why they can't use their laptop or handheld computer with a QWERTY keyboard.

I wonder if something had a different type of keyboard in their notebook like a devorak (sp) keyboard, you would be able to use it on a standardized test.

according to the rules of tests, yes, you could use a devorak. It's a loophole. So just rip out the 92's keys, put it in devorak, and get a key remapper. Of course, the school might try to stop you, but then you can sue for millions (or maybe not)

but why make millions, when you can make.... billions?

Could I just rip out the Q? They don't say anything about not using WERTY keyboards.

The only thing (functionally) that the 92+ has that the 89 doesn't have is the Geometry feature, which can be purchased for the 89 via a flash program, so I don't really see why it's banned, besided the fact it looks imposing to administrators, board members and other high ranking numbskulls who don't know crap from shit!

crap and shit, umm, are..the same thing...ok?

I said it for laughs and giggles to get people irritated and annoyed. See, I even got you to respond and comment. I try to say things that are off the wall and out of the ordinary to catch people's eye and get their attention. See what mean.

Like I said previously, it is because the 92(+) has a QWERTY keyboard. Go to the College board website and look under calculator requirements / limitations and under both the SAT and AP calc tests it specifys that nothing with a QWERTY keyboard is allowed.

But why? Why are they not allowed did the web site say that?

You say the test is designed so that you don't need a graphing calculator. I've taken the test. It may not be designed for the use of a graphing calculator, but it makes it a whole lot easier to take.
As for other statement, if the technolegy is there why not use it? We also have the technolegy to give the students a copy of the answers while they take the test. That's not done because it would show if the student knows how to do the problem. A graphing calculator is not far from an answer sheet. It does not show if a student knows how to do the problem, it merely shows if they know in which part of their calculator they plug the problem in to get the right answer. Not exactly fair to the students who have to work the problem out by hand.