Survey posted 2000-02-27 20:36 by Andy.

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Calculators such as the TI-89, when used right, remove all element of work from math and defeat the entire purpose of testing. I've personally known several people that can use a calculator that can't do simple addition without it. The point of math classes is not to learn how to push buttons on a calculator right, but to learn the logics of math.

I agree - the advanced algebra abilities of graphing calcs should only be utilized for daily assignment. Furthermore, the person with more money to buy a really nice calculator should NOT have the advantage in the tests. Money should not be a factor.

amicek

I disagree. Many schools, including mine, provide TI graphing calculators, and with the acceptance of the calculators, you must accept their capability. In many cases, mind you not all, money isn't a factor as big as you might think.

Everything is about tools and what you use. Anything you have that somebody else doesn't you should use to your advantage. I of all people should know that growing up where I did.

But, you have to know that those that learn how to do a ertain thing don't develop habits pertaining to a certaion peice of machinery. I do not agree with using computer algebra systems on standardized tests because of that reason alone; Take it from me, I used to be able to do fairly high amounts of math in my head, fairly fast. But when I got my 86, it took that need away. I haven't been able to do as fast since.
As much as you may say "use it to your advantage", you must also know that the more you use it, the less you remember to to it the "old fashioned way".
I don't agree for one reason. That reason is that people that use a calculator or something like that that does work for you, become dependant on it.

Akira

I have to agree. Just using my 86, I was able to pull a 'B' throughout high school math without learning a whole lot. However, when I started college, and more importantly Calculus, I ran into some real problems. We're no allowed to use 89's or 92's, and my 86 could not get me though without knowing the material. I survived Calculus I with a C, but was forced to drop Calculus II. If you plan on going to college (especially in Computer Science) you should know your math.

Well, that may hold true for mediocrity such as you, but some people actually want to learn math and use their calculators as aids. Its called using calculators RESPONSIBLY!! If you don't understand, look up responsible in the dictionary.

How much math have you taken? Calc II is hard, especially without a calculator (my class had *no* calculators allowed). Even if you *have* taken college-level math classes, you shouldn't be so quick to judge. I think Thoreaux would agree...

There is no reason to disallow the CAS on tests. I hear some say the person with more money shouldn't have an advantage, but why not ban all graphing calcs then to make us all equal with those with only scientific calculators? The fact of the matter is we couldn't do most math without calculators, the human brain was not made to calculate and it would take too long. The CAS does not give you any more an advantage as any other calculator. I did the SAT's in 8th grade before i even had a graphing calculator and it could do everything easily, so the CAS couldn't make it any easier.

oh please.

i've had four semesters of college calc (i,ii,iii, diff eq) and i'm a senior in high school. there's more difficult things in life (like poetry analysis, for example).

anyway, the point is that you may be the proud owner of a ti89, but it won't help you (too much!) in a well-organized class. you get credit for procedure, not the answer. and you can only do the procedure if you know your stuff.

on an interesting note, i took a calc based physics class with a guy that had a ti82, and i had my ti89. and he kicked my ass every time with that crummy calculator. why? because he's hella smart.

so if you're hella smart, this calculator testing issue shouldn't bother you, since you can use the greatest cas in the world - your mind.

it's the weaker students that complain, because one of their weaker-student friends got an edge with a cas.

so, hey, before all you weaker students without a ti89 get mad - get even. study. you'll be amazed at what you can do. and ultimately, you'll have an advantage over someone who has being using their cas as a crutch since you'll have a better idea of the fundamentals of calculus, so you can apply them to high level problems in calculus, while everyone else is trying to get their "solve(" function to work in n-dimensions.

See, you may think of poetry analysis to be something difficult, but (for an extreme example) a poet wouldn't think the same way. Just because you think a certain way (you're clearly math/logic-oriented) doesn't mean the entire world does, too.
See, people are different ;)

On the subject of the CAS, I think it's a great boon if you have the tools there.
***If you know where the math comes from and why the numbers on a standardized test mean what they mean, you're golden. The calculator rarely means anything.***
I think that my TI-89 available to me on the SAT was much more helpful because it gave me the confidence that I needed; if I reached an impasse that my calculator could provide some insight into, it became that much easier. I was a lot more fearful of a screw-up when I took the ACT math because I had a really bad calculator (30 SLR+).
Ironic that I did better on the ACT math than the SAT :)

--BlueCalx

and some people want to learn the math without using the advanced calculator as an aid. they tend to do better than the people that do use the calculator. Feel free to bitch me out again, but I doubt you got a 790 in math, in 9th grade, without a TI-89.

I also disagree. If you have the calculator you have to know how to use it. In my Calculus class the kids who have "Big Fancy" Calculators understand the math more than the other students who only rent them to get throuhg the class. (A TI-92, TI-89, or a TI-92Plus is required by the College I go to for the Advanced Calculus and Physics courses. In many instances the teachers give you the programs in class that they want you to use in class.)

I think money should be a factor. Some people who buy these big calculators buy them for there qualilty and what they can do. Such as programming. So if they "happen" to have computer algabra on it they should be able to use them.

you are sooo right.
I bought my 83 plus SE because it had the memory to hold my 200 odd games and projcts.
wOOt!

I aggree totally. The algabreic solvers on the 89,92,92+ are nice tools, but really are only there to enhance the calculator's useability in a professional environment, like as an electrical engineer, or an applied mathmatician, not by students to, excuse the word, cheat on their exams.
Although I have personal problems with standardized testing in the first place, and would like to see a better method, (but don't ask me, I just a raving antagonist) I still think that a TI-30x Solar is a better learning tool. (I prefer the TI-30x IIs, the E.O.S. is really cool, but I use my 86 in class.)

Signed,
The Raving Antagonist and Guru,
KB0LZU

They shouldn't allow any calculators on any tests anymore. Anyone can write down a simple 3-digit multiplication problem and solve it. All the ti's have algebraic solver programs.

Actually, the ones on the 83,85, and 86 are numerical; they search for correct answers (I think) only the 89 and 92(+) ones are algebraic.

....YOU.....ARE.....NUTS..... There is no way you can pass a test without a calc. And I'm no moron! I am in Algebra 2 in my freshmen year.

i passed a test in 2nd grade before I hade my calc...I passed the test because it was easy, but i'm not so sure about how I got through day without Penguins or Phoenix :)
wOOt!

What are standardized tests for, if not to predict one's performance in the professional environments you describe? When an engineer (or a psychologist or a physical therapist) is going to have certain tools at their disposal during their career, it's logical to give them the same tools when trying to predict their performance in that career. You wouldn't expect a paleontologist to be sent out in the field without a pick because it would give them an unfair advantage over the other paleontologists.
As far as I'm concerned, -every- student should be taught how to do the math by hand, and then -given- a calculator with CAS. It's time to free students' minds of the menial, error-prone process and give them the tools to really move forward.

I agree totaly. What the teachers do here at my school, since we have mostly rich kids that can afford the 89's and 92's, they teach us how to do the problem by hand first. Then if there is a function on the calculator that is able to do it, they teach that when they feel that the students have learned they "by hand" way.

Besides, if you want to work in a fast paced environment then you need to know how to use what you have (your clac). Knowing how to do it is an extra addition to your knowledge that will help you figure other things out too.

Have you ever heard a more conservative, republican statement?

That's not conservative moron.

Fine, whatever. I take it back.

Heh. You and your political labels. :P

To GrandCenturion: How isn't it conservative?

It isn't conservative at all. There's nothing about it that suggests a social or political tendency that one would call conservative (or liberal, for that matter). It happens to be wrong and most conservatist statements are also wrong, but not all things wrong are conservative.

I agree, once somebody knows how to do something they should be able to take short cuts and do things to help them. Calculators are aids, not brains. And most people don't know what they can do witht their calculators like we can (heh heh).

amen brother... see my comment elsewhere on this page

I agree also. Dont mean to brag, but I'm taking vector calculus in college, and the material is hard enough even though I use a ti89. My idea is that the students shoult be allowed to learn the concepts and the ideas relevant to the material without having to cram their mind with all the formulas and rules of integration, etc.

There's no reason using a CAS calculator on an exam is cheating or is bad. Tests should be adapted to test concepts beyond what a calculator can do easily. Instead of writing a problem like:

If 100 = 50 * x, what is the value of x?

The problems should measure better skills, like word problems or reasoning skills. In my Algebra II class, we never get problems (in class) like the above problem. The object of our work in class is application of Algebra II principals to life. Not being given a problem, but reasoning through a situation and then writing the problem to solve it, like different ways of investing money and compound interest. Calculators shouldn't be made dumber, tests need to test different skills.

Also, I disagree with the people who say that calculators take away all mental and manual math ability. I just took a standardized test with a section devoted to that concept and I was surprised that I did as well as I did (answering every problem without guessing) on such a timed section. I've used my calculator so much that in previous years, my nickname was "calculator boy."

I agree. As long as the students still have to think, calculators should be allowed. And I think that test makers have adapted well to the new calculators. For example, I've heard that the AP Statistics test has gotten much harder since the TI-83 came out.

amen brother! even though i have a ti-89, i agree that people are depending more and more on calculators. Theres nothing more satisfying than doing long division without a calculator!!!

maybe not.

When a friend and I get bored, we just start very long division problems, like 30295782057/4, on paper. When we finish, we check on a calculator, and if it is right, then we get a point. Whoever gets to 10 first wins. P.S. whenever somebody makes a really good math program that works well, why don't people think that is really cool? Also, I need suggestions for a new math program I'm making for the 86. It is called MATHELP. E-mail me any formulas and stuff that you think should be on it.

--Ben

you should supply your email with your message :P

I don't agree w/ allowing calculators on standardized tests, but i do have a life that doesn't involve games like solving 30295782057/4. I do think that regular and scientific calculators should be allowed.

While its not healthy to be totally dependent on calculators for everything its not healthy to say that only slide rules should be allowed on test because calculators defeat the purpose of math.

He didn't say just slide rules..Just scientific and regular calculators. But then, lets think, the great engineers of the 1800's didn't use calculators to determine the stress of a certain joint, but instead, they used slide rules. I you are just basing you entire argument on a calvin & hobbes strip or because you can't do math without your precious 89(Chemical equation solver...) I believe you should look at all the facts before writing again.

Its taking it out to its logical conclusion! ITs called analyzing something, and you have to do it to intellegently support any opinion you may have. Also your little 1800's statement is absurd because they didn't have 89's back then and they could do a lot of stuff because of that. We can do so much more much quicker because of technology. It's absurd and stupid to reject it because George Washington didn't use 89's, well, George Washington also never used a flush toilet. Should we not use them because George Washington didn't? Even in the 1800's they were a rarity, not until after the 2nd World War did they really become common in homes. Going to the bathroom in my great grandfathers home in Oklahoma involved a flashlight and the will of God to outrun the geese. I think you should review your facts before spouting off from your platform of alleged knowledge. And your mentioning my chemical equation balancer backs up my statement all the more. Do you know why I use it? Because I already know how to do it by hand, and I save time with the 89. I do the simple ones manually because it takes more time to enter them in my 89 than to just do them myself. If I lost the program, so what, I can do it without a calculator. THe important point that I am stressing is that the purpose of technogy is to save time, the calculator does just that. I feel it important to know how to do it without a calculator. One I know, I take all the short cuts I want. Think about it.

You want to know what's even more fun? Doing long division in Roman numerals...

You know what's even more pointless? Long division in binary!

Know what's even MORE pointless?

987654321! (factorial)

(Answer according to my 86: ERROR 04 DOMAIN)

heh, I was actually about to copy/paste the answer, but I didn't want to turn this html page into a 100MB file. =) Almost as pointless as dedicating a multimillion dollar supercomputer to calculating pi.

***********

I think the question should be restated as "Do you think calculators with computer algebra systems should be allowed on college entrance exams?" That seems to be the debate here. Some of you argue that standardized exams prepare you for the real world, where calculators are allowed, but college entrance exams like the ACT and SAT I/II are designed to measure performance in _college_, i.e. school. The purpose of math classes are to provide an environment for learning, understanding, and practicing mathematical concepts and principles. While a CAS-based calculator often comes in handy, one has to realize that there is a proper time and place to use such a device. You really have to admit, dependence on something or someone else to give you the answer to a question defeats the purpose of education. On an exam that specifically measures basic math skills, using a CAS calculator is identical to looking off someone's paper. If you don't know how to do it, you do not deserve to get the correct answer. Effort=Excellence (Try that on your CAS). Personally, it hurts my integrity when I become dependent on my TI-89. Isn't independence what we all seek? Are you going to let an electrical circuit show your brain up? =)

Keep in mind that I am not against the usage of such calculators; I mentioned before that there is a proper time and place. It is perfectly acceptable to use one in the real world, as well as to save time on hard assignments. To clarify, I believe that instead of lowering the standards of our brains, we should lower the standards of calculators. If the level of math being done is algebra, then it is perfectly acceptable to use a calculator to do something lower than algebra, such as arithmetic, to aid in doing the algebra. However, if the level of math being done is arithmetic, then a calculator should not be used to do the arithmetic.

if mathAssigned >= mathComputed then
use calculator
else
do not use calculator

hows that work?

Penguins in more satisfying...
wOOt!

I don't agree
yes some people need a calculator to do an addition but your calculator don't resolve a problem. Tt does only some things ("stupids") faster but it don't have a brain and i think the must be authorized

Okay listen up kiddies-
A calculator is a tool. CAS can be used, but it really should only be used in professional environments. On tests and such, it should only be used as a check or as a last resort.

But you have to admit- its pretty neat to hit fifteen keys and get a perfect Math score on the SAT!

I agree 100%! I have a TI-89 and the CAS is really cool, but what good are you if your Calc. is smarter than you are? People in my class think I'm stupid to have a 89 and only use it to check problems - they say that I should just have it do the problems for me!

-JRH

P.S. Besides, if you have a good teacher, they will mark it wrong if there is no work - and you allways have your brain, you don't allways have your Calc...

BAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
BRAIN SLUGS!!!! BRAIN SLUGS!!!!

And when they come, I'll Be ready!!!
(Sonic Screwdriver, TI-89, Laser Blaster)

unless the Daleks steal your sonic screwdriver

wOOt!

I agree the point of math classes are to learn about the math stuff and how to do it, but once you know it you should be able to make programs or use programs to help you. That's what calculators are there for. As aids to people. You learn to do something, then you do it on your calculator once you do know it. Ohterwise we'd all be doing everything in our heads and on paper because we have to know how to do it! That attitude if taken too far defeats the whole purpose of calculators. However to opposite taken too far is equally dangerous.

I too disagree; the calculators should be allowed. Those who excel in math won't have to worry about simple and time-consuming computations. Those who can't add two together are not going to pursue a career involving math antway. The school systems are screwed up as it is; students are ranked in every subject even if they have no intrest in it whatsoever.
Schools(has we know them) were orginally designed to train factory workers back in the america'a period of industrialization and has grown way out of proportion. The school systems infringe on our rights and make us all slaves under a bueacracy. So I guess what im trying to say is if school was to be reformed this question would already be answered. Join the rebellion.

Definitely not. If teachers make *GOOD* tests, than you will have to understand a function to answer the question correctly. Simply knowing how to use the function is not enough, as long as the questions are not straightforward. When more and more things, can be done fast by a calc, it's time to move up to more difficult math, which the calc can't solve (yet). So, calcs make the level in math classes higher, if used correctly, not lower.

I strongly disagree. Calcuators should be allowed on tests. The point of school and more imporntantly college is to prepare you for the real world, there's not too many companies that wouldn't allow you to use a calcuator to help you solve a problem. Plus in the more advanced classes, no matter what calculator you have, if you don't know what you're doing, no calcuator in the world will save you.

Amen!

I do not know how standardized tests looks like in USA. If it is only choose between several answers, there is no point to allow calculators.

But, I studied on University of Sarajevo which had so strict math teacher that he was fired from MIT in Boston. Calculators were strictly prohibited, even those with four operations. And, it was not only required complete solution of all (hard) tasks, but also to write a lot of theory. Number of students passed the examination sometimes was 4 of 480!

I survived real war in Bosnia, but I remember such examination sometimes with more horror, because it took three years to finally pass it with minimal passing mark 6.

When I had Calculus 2 examination, because we had amongst other, numerical analyse, I used Casio 8000, and passed the examination with second best mark, 9.

Calculator did not solve tasks for me. But if you know which solution is correct, you will demonstrate your knowledge solving the task, you will have more time because there is no need to check every step deriving or integrating function, and as you know that you correctly solved the task you can concentrate to next.

Finally, mathematic is not only examination that require symbolic calculus. There is physics, electric circuit theory, quantum physics, ... On such examinations, you can concentrate to physical meaning of task, and mathematical part should be easier part of task, what is a goal, in my opinion.

Well, only some calculators. Not the ti-89-92. they do all the work for you. But if you used the ti-83 through 86s, then yeah.

In the real world, you can use a TI-89 for whatever you need. Tests exist to show how well you can do the math. Doing the math with the aid of a calculator is still doing the math. There's no places in the real world with signs "No TI-89's allowed here!" Fact is, if you have a calculator, what you can do without one doesn't matter diddily-squat.

Doing calc and diffeq. is all fine and dandy with or without a ti-89/92+. but the problem with them is you weild an awesome power in those calcs and the power to abuse them is great. I have to say that 99% of the problems in calc arent from the calculus itself, its just adding up a bunch or rectangles, but the algebra that the calc has done for us all our livees. people dont realize that doing things symbolically can save a lot of time instead of punching numbers in a calc and i know that ti-89/92+ can do symbolically but you automatically start cranking out numbers from the get go. I think the 92+/89 should not be allowed on standardized tests. you should absolutely know the answer or not, otherwise you will end up saying i think but calc tell me the answer. very bad