Survey posted 2004-02-09 21:45 by Morgan.

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I thought I would end the age old debate right here, right now. What are the reasons you think the one of the above calculator is better than the other. And the all important question....WHY?? I am writing a paper my a class of mine on this very subject and I want your input! Yeah...I couldn;t come up with a better topic so... I'll be including some quotations from the replies as well as interviewing anyone who has AIM. Personal stories are very helpful!!! If you have some dire ambition to be interviewed becasue you have good experience with both of these calcs... contact me on AIM over the next week or so...maybe longer, it will depend. My AIM SN is: Morgazum85 Thanks for helping resolved this age old endless depate!

Ok so we were having some difficulties entering in [enter] into posts for a while there, thus none I had in the above post showed up...

Contact me on AIM @ Morgazum85 if you want to be interviewed for an article I am writing about this issue. Make sure you have good experience and justification for your reasons...

believe it or not I will be very subjuctive and unbiased asI can..got to keep the professionality.

ummmmm.... did you mean 'objective'?

Just remember that most people who are reading this have already voted. Don't use this as a way to convince them to vote a different way.....

I, however, have not, at 22:23 GMT+10 11-02-04, yet voted...

I'd love to compare the menu systems for each calc, but I don't have a ROM for the 86...or 84+ SE, any chance of getting one?

For the 86 that would be illegal (if you're asking for a ROM in this context, you probably don't have the actual calc), for the 84 it will (or at least, should ;) ) remain impossible to obtain it in the near future.

Perhaps it's the fact that I don't have a link cable for it...

Who is actually keeping track of who has illegall roms in the first place? I doubt if anyone actually cares as long as yo dont sell them or copy them or distribute them or edit them or anything else other than emulate them--or delete it(but youd have to have it in the first place)

--==PHIL'S COMMENTS--PART ONE==--

Well, I'll try to make this comment a bit more constructive and helpful than the last one. Here are all my opinions:

o       The TI-86 is a powerful calculator. It is good, it can do lots of math, however, it lacks a Sequential mode, which to me, isn't that much of a big deal. However, an Honors Algebra 2 student, who is a friend of mine, had a TI-86 and wanted to use the sequential graphing mode. Everybody else in the class was using a TI-83+, and they could all participate in the class instructions, but he couldn't, because, to my knowledge, you can't do that on a TI-86.
o       The TI-86's menus are awful. I know, I know, this is the center of the debate right here, but honestly, they're horrible to use. I prefer the TI-83+'s menus much more, since you can see more options on the screen at once, and it just makes more sense, logically. You can see and understand what you're doing on the screen, and to the average TI user, the TI-86 menus are not only confusing, but frustrating, as well.
o The TI-83+ has flash ROM. The TI-83+SE has even more. The TI-86 has... none. Flash ROM on the TI-86 would be nice, but it's not there. (I know I sound awfully biased toward the TI-83+... and I am, so, hope that doesn't bother anybody too much)

(cont. in next post)

Ummm...the 86 does have a sequential graphing mode. Find FORMT on the graph menu.

--==PHIL'S COMMENTS--PART TWO==--

o The TI-83+ is much more widely used and is still supported by TI. At any time, TI could make a new Flash APP program for the TI-83+SE, but since TI doesn't support the TI-86, the TI-86 is much less popularly used, and as far as mathematical deomstrations go, the TI-86 isn't used. The calculator for this is the TI-83+SE (and soon, the TI-84+SE). It's surprising, but not even the TI-89 gets this much attention. The most popular calculator is the TI-83+SE (soon to be the TI-84+SE).
o The TI-83+ may seem better in all of the above categories, but I will concede that the TI-86 has some pretty good games. The only reason I can see that you'd want a TI-86 is for the games. There is a nice collection of third-party software for the TI-86, which is, considered by some, to be better than the TI-83+SE's collection (TI-86 isn't full of BASIC junk either).
o Yes, the TI-86 has better math capabilities, but (as this is stated below), if that's your reasoning for getting the TI-86 over the TI-83+SE, then you might as well go up another step and get the TI-89 (the best calculator of all, in every aspect). :-D

So, those are my comments. I hope they are considered to be more useful than the other ones :) This also pretty much sums up the comparison/constrast from the two calcualators, from my standpoint. The TI-86 does have better math on it than the TI-83+, but IMO, if that's the only reason you're getting it, then you might as well just go for the ultimate calculator of all time- the TI-89. :)

Oh, btw, this report sounds interesting. Are you doing this for a school project? Will we get to read it? ;-)

--==end Phil's comments==--

i think the ti83+ is the most advanced because it has archive memory. this is useful bcuz things get annoying when all ur mem is cleared on a ti86

Two words, Flash ROM. Actually, that is a word and an acronym.... but nevermind. That and the menus suck. -W-

justification.....aaah! Come on you just can't say that it suck!

I voted "no opinion" because I own none of the mentioned calcs and know little about them. However, a bit about the 86 menus... a friend of mine had just opened his box that day and upon activation of the first menu his calculator immediately "screwed up." I'm not sure of the specifics but half of the menus would not show up (by that I mean the bottom half, not some menus). I thought it was funny but he had to send it back because they wouldn't help him via e-mail with how to fix it.

Come On!
83+ SE / 84+ SE VS 86 W--T--F!?
So, you want to debate a couple of +1MB ROM calcs @ 6-15Mhz against a 6MHz calc with a 96K RAM...O-K
Using the 83+ personally and a few friends, I can easily say the freeze up as much as an 86 would. Usually because of bad Assembly programs!! or GAMES! :@
If the 86 has menu problems without any prior use of assembly programs then FINE, it has some serious problems but WHY compare it to "the best highschool calcs"?

+ I'd like to add (but I don't know how =P):
...I'd sooner buy a calc able to do calculus than a beast with kickass hardware specs that does " " when it comes to calculus and ACTUAL equations. (even though you can do equations on an 83+SE after about a hundred keys)
The fact that 83+'s can't recognise the individual letters and run it as a command is a set back, eg: "s-o-l-e-(" whereas you need to go to CTLG and get "solve("

That wouldn't work on any other calculator, either. Unless of course you created a function 'sole()'

Hey- I haven't seen you here in a long time!

Haha, you're right, sole() doesn't exist :) But, for solve(), you're right, not being able to type it in stinks... but that's why I'm a TI-89 person.

Typos can hapen...
sole() sounds like a good command anyway =P

*user types "sole()" on homscreen*
*user sits back and watches the calc draw the bottom of a shoe*

Then get a TI89.

Kick-ass hardware specs AND can do calculus :)

indoubitably

WHY IS NOT THE TI89 AN OPTION?

The TI-89 is 68K-based, not Z80 based.

And there's a whole lot of calculus stuff the 86 can do that the 83 can't. It's not until programs, which take up memory, are added that the 83 can even compare with the 86 in calculus. In the meantime, the 86 can retain it's memory for other things. *cough* games *cough* The menus on the 86 are better than the ones on the 83, because you can still see what you're doing while selecting something from the menu. But if you like the enter a menu and totally cover what you're working on, possibly forget entirely if you have a bad memory, then that's your preference.

Umm, I don't see how it is bad that you cannot see what you were doing. You go into a menu to get what you need. You don't linger, see what is going down, have a little chat with the menu. You are in the menu for about a second, and that is the longest. If you need to see the screen while you are in a menu, are you sure you are in a class that warrents the advanced-ness of the 86?



-W-

Hardly...the advantage the 86 has is that you can have a manu and a working screen working at the same time.

But why would you need to???? The 86 menus are slow!
-W-

That 86 menus are not slow, what you are referring to is the first time you run an 86 program where the calc has to compile the "writeable tokens" which is another feature the 83+ lacks, thus you "have " to know your way around the calc very well to find everything or go into the catalog every time you want a comand.

I did not say the compiling was slow. The use of the menus are slow.

-W-

I know people who can use them rather speedily. (Faster than me on the 83 or 89, in fact.)

Bet I'm faster than them on a TI-89. :-D I can type VERY fast on my TI-89, even in complete darkness (I've done it before, I wrote a love note on my TI-89 once when I couldn't even see the keys).
I used to be very fast on my TI-82 (I could also type without looking), but now that I'm used to the TI-89 keys and not the TI-82 keys, I have to look when I type on the TI-82.

HOW??? Are you talking about the time it takes to display the menu or what?

No, i am talking about the face that it uses pages, and you have to cycle through the pages to get what you want. There is no pressing "6" to get the command there. This is why I cannot concieve of how the outragous claim made by Jeremi... (damn i cannot spell) can be true.

-W-

That's slow if one is unfamiliar with the 86 menu layout. My math teacher has no problems whatsoever using the 86 menu system, and often beats everyone in the class to doing something on the calculator. (Even those with different models.)

Just because you are fast at doing something, does not mean that another method is not faster. You use a faster system, you will go faster. It is like a street race. The guy with the fastest car wins. Until someone get's NOS, then the other gets blown out of the water.

And morgan says my arguments are lacking....

-W-

Well, TI's aren't cars with NOS now are they?

If someone who has never touched an 83 and myself were to race to see who could get something done faster, I'd win. I have experience with how they 83 works, the other person doesn't. In a similar fashion, if someone has experience with the 86 then they'll get stuff done faster than someone who doesn't have any experience.

Someone with 3 years expirence on an 86 will not be able to do things as fast as someone with the same amount on an 83+.

-W-

I beg to differ. The girl who sits next to me in chemistry has had an 86 for about the same length of time I've had my 83+, and she's way faster. (And I know my way around the 83.)

I just don't understand how that could be possible. I mean, with the ability to press numbers on the 83+ to go right where you want, how could pressing the "more" key many times then an "f-key" be faster?

Howeverm she could be one of those few that can type faster on a calc than most can on a keyboard, and uses the typable-tokens.

-W-

The biggest advantage, which nobody seems to have mentioned it (though knowing my luck, someone said it down the page), is that a menu token can be entered more than once repeatedly. For instance, if you want to type several cube roots at once (where entering 3rt(x) is much faster than (x)^1/3), the 86 requires one less key press for every entry [e] of 3rt(x) (where e>1) than the 83. Multiple entries of submenued tokens require even more keypresses on the 83.

Of course, this is all mostly moot because there is rarely a time when repeated tokens are neccessary.

*I doubt if "submenued" is a word, but you know what I mean.

Well, I understand what you're saying-- if you use it a lot of times in a row, it would be an advantage, but x^(1/3) works just as well for me. By the time I'd be done fumbling around with the menu on the TI-86 (even if I was speedy gonzales with it) to find it the first time, I would have typed it by then.

P.S. Dont' forget the parenthesis around (1/3) in the exponent... your answer will get messed up

Everyone keeps saying that you'd never use the same commands on a calc more than once. I have an 86, and from personal experience, it's vastly more efficient for programming than an 83. I've used both quite a bit, and I find my 86 much better. I can see all the programming commands while I'm typing, so I don't have to stop, hit PRGM, cycle through a few menus, then find the command I want. I can just hit the command, and maybe MORE once or twice, and I can still see what I was programming so I don't forget what I am doing.

That's probably it- I never use the menus or the catalog for my TI-89, I just type everything. And that still doesn't mean that the TI-86 menus are fast. I think your arguments are good.

But knowing your way around doesn't match speed... I know my way aruond the TI-86, and I think it's slower than... well, <insert something slow here>.

Umm, if you'll notice I didn't compare the 86 and the 83. I was comparing the 83 with the 83 and the 86 with the 86.

I can do things faster because I have experience. Can you understand that simple fact or not?

Umm, why do i care what you were comparing? You were responding to me, and I was comparing the speed of the different models. You can be only so fast on the 86, and you can be only so fast on the 83. However, the 83 allows one to be faster than one on an 86.

-W-

you are just saying no to eveything that i am saying, trying to discredit me, and bring forth no real argument. If that is all you are going to do, then why even bother?

-W_

Well, you keep on saying that someone is faster on the 83 than the 86. I don't agree, so naturally I'm saying no to everything you say.

Well, seeing that you have brought forth no justification, or real evidence, i am going to end this one, as i did the RAM part.

-Done responding here as well, I am W-

While you guys are hosing the decks with testosterone about a _a couple of calculators_, I'll make a sly remark about the maturity level of the TI community. Did you catch it?

You mean him disliking a calculator for one feature, or me disliking him for disliking a calculator for one feature?

I asume he meant your little "Does not! \ Does to!"-style discussion.

Hmm, it does seem like that...

Does not!

Does to!

Yeah...it's only a matter of what you're used to. Also, there are almost never more than 3 pages of menus on the 86, so it's really not hard to get to what you want.

O_o
The fact that a youngen like me can learn to operate any calc speedily after getting familiar with it after 2 hours just puts that to shame. Don't buy it if you don't want to learn it.
Catalog is the *****iest thing, ALL commands should be available under other submenus... I'm NOT sayig Catalog should be removed (it's good for learning commands) but the commands SHOULD be available at the press of no more than 4 keys.

For the most part, the commands in the Catalog are also accessable through other menus. There are some exceptions, like GarbageCollect(, sub( and the hyperbolic trig functions, but not a lot.
In all fairness I'd like to add that almost anything in the Catalog that's not in another menu is not used very frequently anyway.

Isn't GarbageCollect( available in the MEM menu? I don't have one, but I've used a TI-83+ a few times, and I think I recall it being there.

Solve() is just 1 command I use frequently with Simultaenous Equations, found it the CTLG and no where else on an 83+. Garbage collect CAN be found under the MEM menu, but I have MEM blocked, so...
>>Fargo won't run on my 92 v1.4, ne???

solve( can be found, when editing a program only, in the Math->0 menu. I would suggest using Omnicalc's mem protection-it allows the MEM key, but not delete or reset.

My favorite feature about the 86-style menu system is that it allows items displayed on the menus to be quickly entered by leaving the menu open and using a single F-key, especially when preforming repetitive operations. Very nice especially for the Custom menu.

Personally, I also like being able to see what I'm doing while choosing from a menu, rather than having a menu replace the screen temporarily.

casio fanboy....

I've never even used a Casio graphing calculator before...

Make your own custom menu using getKey, and put some text alongside it, on the graph screen. That's what I do, and the TI-83 Plus is 100x faster than anything running Windows will ever be.

i agree with that, when programing basic on my 83+ silver, i hardly even need to look at the menus, i just hit the number/letter for the apropiate command, and im back to the program before i see a difference

thank you. That is all I have to say. Just thank you.

-W-

That is for programing, for actualy running the prgm you must admit the 86 has a much better menu system.
I can do almost all of my basic programing without looking because I have done it for so long, but for a program that I have never used before then I have to take some time to look.

I don't agree. What if all you have is menus? I myself wrote a game where you went through the menus. On the 86, if you did this, the screen wuold be blank, and rather bland.

-W-

Then it just leaves more space for additional text or graphics that can help explain the menu functions!!!

u DO hav the option of sepereate backgrouns for every menu on the 86 tho... (im an 83+ (SE) and 89 user)

That's true for a text-based menu game, but for many other kinds of basic games, the menus are great. If you have a game where you want to have commands for attack, or item, or magic, and still want to be able to see the action on the screen, then the 86 menus are perfect for that. You can definitely be more creative in your menus, title screens, and gameplay by incoporating the 86 menus well into your program.
However, i did vote 83+ because i think that that the 83 series, especially + and SE are the "best" calculators for high school students, which is what TI targets anyways. I myself use my 89 primarily, and my 83 infrequently and dont even own an 86, although many of my friends do. But surely the 83+SE is the most advanced z80, although the 86 may be more powerful. And, i think in general the 86 menus look nice and the 83 menus are so ugly i could never use them in a decent game.

FINALLY...someone else who thinks the 83+ menus are ugly!!!!

I'm not sure if the 86 supports number indexes for the menus (I NEED A ROM) but even if they don't, after a few hours of using EVERY function in BASIC then you should be able to just memorize key presses. It IS easy...

im not going to give out any roms here for a variety of reasons, but i found roms for EVERY calculator by google searching "Ti-83 rom" or something like that. try that out, you might find something...

I agree. I'm never in the TI-82 series calculator's menus for longer than a fraction of a second. In fact, I type the stuff that I need so fast that I don't even see the menu. Factorial on a TI-82 -- Math, left, 4. There. That doesn't take long, now does it?

And about the comment before you and the whole "So we have more room for *cough* games *cough*" ... The TI-83+SE has PLENTY more memory than the TI-86, even if you do fill it up with all the calculus programs out there.

one time angelboy spent the whole math period trying to fill up the archive on my silver, it took him forever!!!
he just had a buch of massive matrices and strings, it was hilarious

Those are some great reasons in favor of the 86-also, the 83+ needs either a slow BASIC program or an app that takes up a good portion of the archive to be able to factor polynomials, or solve systems of multiple equations.

Though I voted for the 86 (just because it was my first calc and so I feel a sort of loyalty to it; I actually use the 83+SE the most), note that the poll says "86 or 83+/84+SE". The 32K polysmlt app takes up very little space on the 83SE.

Okay, okay, I realize that I did not give reasons for the menus thing. I once made a BASIC game on it. It was an 86 version of my 83+ lights out game. I got bored in Time Out, and I had my friend's 86. On the 83+, I crapped that game out in about 3 hours(the main mechanics that is). However, on the 86, the menus were so debilitating that it took both days of Time Out to finish the game. That is why the menus suck. Since then, I never looked back. -W-

So they suck because you are incapable of using them?

That's my bigest supporting arguemant....operator error :-)

i don't see how anyone is capable to use them.



But that is not why they suck. They suck, because if you are one page infront of your desired entry, you have to cycle through something like 3 pages to get back to the one you need. This is way longer than the one second that it takes to use the 83+ menus. That is why they suck, they are slow!



-W-

Ahh, so you are incapable of using them. Got it.

No, that is not what I said. I it you read up there, I programed a game on the 86, and realized that i do not care for the menu system.
It appears that you want to say that i hate the menus because i am dumb, or because it is cliché. Just because you put yourself to willing suffering does not make you better than me.
-W-

Actually, it seems that people hate certain calculators just because they can't (or don't want to) use them. I receive similar animosity with my 89.

I never said that I hated the 86. It is a nice calculator. If only it did not have those damn menus. I could have been the best of the z80 calcs if TI would have persued it. But those damn menus turned people off. That is the only reason that I don't want to use it. If I had no other choice, I would use it, but so long as i do, I will keep my distance.

-W-

Hmm, perhaps the poll should've been which calc has better menu systems...

You fail to realize that you can make the 86 menu exactly like the 83 menu with the exceptio nof the bar across the bottom by displaying text across the screen in a similar format that appears the same as the 83 does and even after that you can chose what keys you want to use to call each option instead of just 1,2,3,4,5,6..etc.

The advantages I see to the menus of the 86 is that you have a choice. The mensu is not slow, have no idea what you are talking about there. You have the choice of displaying some sort of screens, weather it be graphics or text or what ever, and still having the option of havign a working menu displayed on the same page.

Anyone who ranks on the menus on the 86 still is and will forever be in my mind, morons. If you truly hate it then you don;t know all that ti can do...need more exploring around.

THE ONLY THING I can think of that the 83 menu has over the 86 is that you can have inverted text on the top line and we all know how cool that is :-)

mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Inverted Text........

I have never used an 86, but I think what *everyone* means is that 86 menus are harder to *learn* to use, while 83 menus... don't have as many features?

Nice point there.

No, that is not the case. My hate of the menus came from prolonged use of them, and the realization that they are not as efficient. If you learn the menu system, and your primary calc has been the 83/+, then you would not like the difference either, and have the opinion that the 83/+'s are better.

-W-

As I said, I have never used an 86, so you may be right.

You could install XCommand on the 86 and have inverted text that way. :)

I COMPLETELY agree. :-)

I get the same stuff and I usualy find it amusing because all of the prepy kids have thier precious 83+ silver always get upset when I show off with the much superior 89.

That always really funny.

-W-

i wanted an 89 but i dont hav the damn funds. my rather unintelligent parents asked my math teacher what kind of calc i should have and *poof* 83+ SE (the store didnt stock the black 83+s). O and that was the 2nd time. I broke my 83+ by deleting an app before uninstalling, THEN my parents asked what kind of calc to get.

You deleted an app without uninstalling it? Big deal, if a RAM reset can't fix it, a full reset will. I can't imagine what you've done if deleting an app caused permanent damage.