I think a key item to consider here is the fact that many games/apps that are posted in PUD sections on pages aren't finished. I'm sure a few people (at least) have looked at a PUD page, seen a really cool game 'in development', mailed the programmer and received a reply like "school is taking too much time". So say I tell people I'm going to make Civilization (which I had considered before hearing anyone else was making it)...I might work a lot on it, then a few days (weeks?) into development I might find out someone else is working on it to. Now several things could happen. We could go into a bitter battle to see who can finish the game faster and better. One person could stop altogether b/c they are too lazy and they think the game will be released even if they don't make it. Or we could join forces and possibly make the greatest game yet! Ya, right. So in the end I think we should have as many people working on as many games/apps at once as are willing to do it. This increases the odds of a game being released. And if one version of the program isn't as good as another, oh well, try to improve it if you really care.

--Dave

I appreciate all the programmers for one way or another, although I usually look first to the ASM section of ticalc for games. I give props to the ASM programmers for making great games, and I give my props to BASIC writers when I try to get a math or science program I'm to lazy to write. Like one article said, BASIC is only understandable to about 10% of people (even my lazy ass!). But there are even fewer ASM programmers out there, and that's why you got to give them their credit.

I just wanted to comment a few things. Firstly, I agree that people shouldn't try to race others to make programs -- we want one good program not 10 bad ones. Secondly, many people don't have respect for programmers. They call people who port games "game stealers" when they play those games all of the time. It really gets to me. But I am sure those people are all callow fools. Anyhow, the last comment I wanted to make was that Don Barnes' Super Mario Quest is a 92plus game that is designed to run on the 89 -- its not even a port.

As far as I am concerned, the person who wrote this article is speaking of things he doesn't know about.People don't write programs to directly compete with everyone else. What, so someone writes a program and no one else should even think of writing one about that same topic? It seems to me that you are just a sorry programer who is pissed because you aren't in the spotlight and people are making better programs than you. My only gripe about the TI-Programing community is that some people have tenedency of taking someone elses code, inserting it in their program, and not giving the author credit. But back to the main subject.
People program for the function, the challenge, and the desire to be known as someone who can do it. Not to compete with others. Who cares if there of 50 versions of nibbles and only 2 are good? Big deal, keep the one you like. If I feel that I can make a better program than everyone else, then I will. It goes the same with lots of other people as well.
Ok, thats my $.50 of opinion.

I must disagree. Competition is just that- people trying to one-up each other and make a better product, and because of this better products appear (programs and etc.) This is precisely the reason that there are anti-trust laws and Microsoft is on the hot-seat right now. In order to have a good product you don't need competition, but it surely makes it better.

I think the respect needs to be placed with the basic programmers. I know people that took some programs I made for the 82 or 85 before I had a link and uploaded them as their own. When I finally got my 89, I nabbed a link with it. Then I saw all these programs that I made with a few kids from my school name's on them.

I have also heard of some people 'porting' ASM games to basic. I know that sounds weird, but it happens. Some kid will just take pics of the graphics, them make a huge program.

Last, People port programs from one calculator to another and NOT give the creator credit. I will not name names, but it happens.

I believe this is a much larger problem than just having five freakin versions of Mario. Which might I add is a wonderful waste of time in math class. Having more than one Mario program causes the devs to come up with better ideas and new cool features. Just look at the Computer Gaming Industry, you have Unreal, Quake II, Half life, Klingon Royal Gaurd, the list goes on and on. And with each of those games, one saw a great improvement.

Thank You

KGB AgEnT #4™ AKA CLINT RUTKAS OUT

There are only two marios for the 89. The one ported from the 92 and Super Mario Quest ( the best version!). I think your just annoyed because your version is non-existant and will probably be crap if it ever comes out. Competition just brings better products. Who cares if there are many versions of the same game? Nobody's forced to play the crappy versions.

I can't believe this article. This guy's complaining about people making mario games. Wow, making a mario game, thats a real original idea by you Mr. Cook. Did you think that one up all by yourself? Amazing how a couple of people would simultaneosly decide to make one type of game. Uh, maybe cuz its one of the best and most famous games ever made, and as displayed by Mario 86, there is an incredible demand for it.
Yes, some games like Tetris and MineSweeper are overdone an TI-8X calcs, but Mario does NOT fall into that category. Mario is complex enough that 2 different renditions can be completely different. If some programmer wants to spend 2 months programming the game of his choice, then he should do it. Who the hell are you to tell him that he can't? It's not like your idea is unique or original. Nintendo should tell you to stop making your version because you took their idea.
In my opinion, there can never be enough calculator games.


To Cook: Grow up!


Now if another Mario 89 programmer stole your code then that another story.

Has he even written any code?

haha

he'll start writing code once someone writes it for him

I dont think there really is any "writing of code", and people can not fully call themselves programmers. Most "programmers" out there are just 'Strategic Inputters of Routines Already Made for Them', isnt that true? The Real programmers are ones that write routines or programs that are Basises for other programs, but also write Games 'n stuff that show the full potential of these routines. Real programmers (for the TIs) are ones that are at a stage where they can figure out stuff for themselves, and not having to go ask the mailing lists every small little question they have. I feel MBCook is not at that stage yet, and a game like this should not be his first one to attempt to program. He chose to make it because the 89 was fairly new and Mario hadnt been developed yet, and Im sure many people had the exact same idea, not because MBCook mentioned it on A89, but that Mario is a classic game that should be made for the 89. At this rate, he will not get done with this game for another year, but before then will get tired of it and drop the game. So, therefor, anyone who feels they can produce this type of game and has Ideas for it AND the Expertise to, then they should go ahead and make theyre Mario game, no matter who had the "idea" first... =P

I'd like to point out that you would be very, very lucky to write a side scroller in only two months! You would already have to be an expert at asm programming for your calc and do nothing but eat and program (sleep might fit into there somewhere, hehe...nah).

Writting big, complicated games takes a very long time. Part of the problem is lack of knowledge. Alot of your time goes in to the R&D portion of programming. The other part comes from getting bored of your game. It took Nagel about a year to complete Mario 86. A year! And he already had a partial engine complete from Penguins! I'd bet Jimmy Mardell spent at least 6 months on Sqrxz.

No one is going to spend six months writting asm code just to beat you in finishing yours. Any big game, especially a side scroller, shows that the author put serious work and effort into their idea. They didn't just steal yours.

I would suggest that you spend more time writting code and less time worrying about people finishing a game before you. If you're not programming for the love of programming, you need to find another hobby.

I'd have to agree with David. Programming is something that we do for fun, and it shouldn't be a huge political thing. There are some spoliers out there who try to "beat" other people, put down people with less programming ability, and the people who have a program that's 87.6% routines from other people and give no thanks for it at all. (These people should be drug out into a street and beaten with a large stick then lit on fire, but that's besides the point.) If you're a programmer, you love the power you have over making that little handheld device do exactly what you want it to do... and hear the most beloved words of all from your friends acquaintances... "Woah! You did this?!"

If you want to play politics, go somewhere else.

After playing on MUXes (like MUDs) for several years, I decided that I wanted to try and install Linux. It sounded like a cool operating system, and as I found out later, it is. I was very careful when I installed... made sure that I wouldn't mess up my computer doing this. I didn't. I got Linux installed and figured out some basics. But I was still considered a complete idiot.

The Linux community is, for the most part, a snobby, self-rightous, holier-than-thou community. Just visit #linuxhelp with an AOL e-mail address and you'll see what I mean. People I knew with Linux got mad after I asked more than a couple questions. Linux was/is a great operating system, and I love it! It kicks Windows 98, the only fully-integrated Virus and Operating System on the market today (except for maybe Win95), in the rear. So what does this have to do with graphing calculators?

Assembly has a similar complexity level to Linux. If you don't agree, I don't want to argue, that's somewhat flawed logic. But it's the kind of thing that can easily get holier-than-thou-hate-the-newbie really quick. It hasn't. The Assembly community is, for the most part, quick to help and tolerant of new people. I've made several online friends with these people, and they're always willing to help. Even Jimmy Mardell, the God of Assembly Programming, has answered a few of my questions. These people are great!

I think that the TI community is not commended enough for this. Many other communities- Linux, Usenet Junkies, MUX/MUSH/MUD/MOO, and many others are downright mean much of the time.

Competition is healthy, BASIC programmers deserve some respect (I once explained to my math class how to make an EXTREMELY simple program and I got so many blank stares and huhs and "could you please go slower"s it was amazing. Sure, it's not ASM, but BASIC programmers need some respect, too) and people should NOT copy others' programs with minimal modification and pass them off as their own. My thanks section for my first ASM game will be huge, even though I wrote almost all of the code myself. Come on people, it's not that hard to credit other people, and it makes you look better in the longrun. The best way to make quick enemies is to not credit people for their hard work.

While this is somewhat off-topic, I must disagree with your generalization of the Linux community. Basing your opinion on the results of information queries on IRC is rather unfair, given the "flaming" nature of the medium.

For the most part, Linux Gurus and developers, certainly those who frequent the newsgroups, are rather kind and patient with newcomers and willing to answer questions, provided you've put some effort into solving the problem on your own.

Unfortunately, in communities (online or in person) it tends to be the few loud and obnoxious ones who make an impression, not the quieter multitudes who are willing to take a few minutes and give worthwhile advice.

I'm not acting any different than they are. I have had bad experiences with several Linux groups and, as a concequence, I generally frown on Linux cliques. Now I know that not all Linux people are unhelpful. I just haven't found any helpful ones. While both of us may not be doing the right thing, we're doing the same thing.

Thank you! I'm glad to see someone make a valid point without personally insulting anyone. I fully agree that even BASIC programmers (of which I am one) deserve respect. After all, the majority of my AP Calc class doesn't understand how to program, let alone make games. I also agree that the TI community needs to strive to not take on the "holier-than-thou" attitude found so often in other technological communities.

i do a lot of basic programing (but rarely put it on the internet) and i don't make progs to see if i can do better than someone else, i do it to see if i can or to make a game that i like.

Competition is good because the "customer" can pick the best one. If the only Mario out there was text only, then, well, that would suck. What does writing a another Mario have to do with respect anyway? It isn't like it was your original idea, Nintendo should be complaining if anybody.

Geez, TiCalc must be pretty desperate for new
articles if that have to post whining letters from
programmers. :o) Mabye if I put together a
"Ti-xx" Wishlist fot the holidays" they'll post
it. actually, that's not a bad idea. Send your
hopes for the holidays (Wether it be a new version
of Mario86 w/ fireballs, or FF7:The Calling)
to TxdoHawk@Hotmail.com, and I'll put together a
list. Hey folks, it beats listening to
complaining programmers like this guy.

I'd like to see some good ready-to-use sprite clipping, pasting, and editing functions. They could be used as any other calculator function. This would be a good help to ASM programmers for making beta versions of tileset games in BASIC, and BASIC programmers could make near-ASM quality games on their calcs. They would have to be on the 83 or 86, unless you want to add another calculator on my wishlist.

Sprite Clipping? You must not have heard of Jimmy Mardell's awsome ASCR (Advanced Sprite Clipping Routines).

Go to 86 Central (url above) and check out the Sprites and Clipped Sprites section. It tells you all about the wonderful ASCR.

Yeah, you're right. I myself wouldn't use these (I don't copy code like that), but that kinda defeats the purpose of asking for one. Looking at his code he looks pretty experienced....

Jimmy Mardell? Pretty experienced? LOL! He is one of the greatest TI programmers ever! The ASCR routines come from Sqrxz, which is, IMHO, still the best side scroller for any calc. Ever played ZTetris or Boulder Dash? Yes? Two more awsome Mardell games.

There is nothing wrong with using someone else's routines as long as you have their permission and give them credit. The ASCR, for example, were posted by him in the 85/asm/routines section at this site. He obviously wanted others to use them. Just leave the header in so others can see where you got it from.

I doubt more than a couple of people could beat the ASCR routines for size or efficiency. So why not use them? Why bloat your program and slow it down when there is a faster/smaller routine available?

I look at it this way. Write the routine yourself first, then study the optimized one and learn how it works. If you are doing that, then you have learned, and aren't really copying it. Just make sure to give them credit and get their permission if they desire it. I'm happy to let other's use my routines. But if you don't understand it or you couldn't write a routine with the same functionallity, you shouldn't be using it.

In short, feel free to use but give credit where credit is due.

Does that include TI-30s?????? (heh heh)