so i was sitting here thinking about this new TI-83+SE, if you will, and i got to thinkin, "what about overclocking? couldn't you get a faster CPU just overclocking a regular TI-83+?" i read somewhere that overclocking makes the CPU run 2 to 3 times faster. and when implemented on that 83+SE, you could have up to a 45 MHz CPU!! damn fast... but i don't own an 83+, so i'm probably wrong. and who the hell is gonna use 1.5 megabytes in a 83+?? i have an 86, which is long overdue for an upgrade (needs more Calculus features and some Flash ROM), and i agree with all those people back on pages 1 and 2 that are saying that TI needs to devote more time to its better calculators, i.e. the 86, 89, 92/92+. i mean sure, the 83+ is the best-selling graphing calc TI has ever made, but lots of people, including myself, think that it's fine the way it is. and i DO use the TI-83+ alot at school because all the people that own them are stupid and can't figure out what "Garbage Collect" means...

I'm not taking sides...just trying to think my way through the reasons behind the new product.

We all keep complaining that TI should upgrade the 86 with Flash. Okay, but why the 86? We like it for it's advanced math features, conversions and memory...right? (okay, well at least I do)...and yes, because of the cool games it has.

I then noticed that TI also announced a slew of apps for the 83 Plus family (also working on the Silver Edition)

Stuff for our Math Science needs:
-Differential Equations graphing
-Poly Nomial Root Finder
-Simultaneous equation solver
-Significant figures calculator app
-Constants and conversions apps.
-Conic graphing
(all of which are free)
Check it out... http://www.ti.com/calc/flash/83p.htm

Stuff for our game needs:
- an SDK exists for the 83 Plus and I'm assuming the Silver Edition will also have one.

- a whole bunch of Flash to store apps and games
- Fast processing for apps and games...faster thant he 86!

Personally, if this thing delivers what they say it does, I may be ready to retire my 86...maybe!

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind...just thought I'd point this out in case folks for discussion.

As for the 89... I don't. Perhaps they have something in the works??

Later,
Bryan

If you're going to use your 86 or 89 but need those Flash apps that you've listed, I'm really sure you can find those in BASIC programs. That's why the TI-83+ doesn't really _need_ Flash, it's just convenient to have it around. The TI-86, I think, would be much better off with Flash than the TI-83. The TI-83 is for high school students, but the TI-86 is for more advanced students (and even people out of school), so if engineering apps were made for the TI-86, it'd be more useful.

Perhaps, but... (you knew that was coming) :)

That's just my point...if the 83 + and SE can serve someones math needs in HS and then have the 86 advance stuff added to it to serve ones needs in more advance classes, does the 86 REALLY have that much more of an advantage over the 83+/SE? Maybe it does, but maybe doesn't.??

That's the question I'm thinking through... on one hand I have to load those apps on to my calc. On the other hand, I choose what is on the calculator at any give time (the SE, would be able to hold all them and still leave plenty of room for games and stuff).

You point out that the features of those apps can be/or have been duplicated in BASIC programs... perhaps. But I would have to ask, aren't those features more powerfull on the 86 than the BASIC programs that exist? If not, then the statements saying the 86 is the more mathmatically powerfull of the two doesn't seem to hold water. If they are more powerfull on the 86 than the existing BASIC programs, then I would think that it's because they are faster and 'layered' into the 86's achitecture... They can do this because those features (like the OS) are written in Assembly. Which leads to my point... if TI releases these apps for the 83 +/SE they will be in assembly and will have MUCH more power and integration to the rest of the machine than existing BASIC programs that simulate the features...

Let's continue the debate...perhaps we'll get to the bottom of what TI's up to...

Later,
Bryan

You took the words right out of my mouth. I didn't want to post it, because I don't want hate mail from TI-86 users ;)

What advantages does the TI-86 have over the TI-83 Plus SE? I think it can be broken down to: Different Menu System, More Advanced Features, and More RAM. I personally don't mind the TI-83 Plus menu system too much, but I know a lot of TI-86 users detest it. This is easily fixed by writing an application to change the menus to TI-86 style. Don't feel like writing such an application? Don't worry, I almost have it completed :)

The Advanced Features can be replicated by applications as well, and TI has started to do this with their announced applications. I also agree with Mr. May that I would like to be able to choose which specific features I have on my calculator. Applications will let me do this.

The RAM is a slight problem I suppose, but really not too many programs are going to be larger than 24K anyhow. You'll keep the assembly programs and games in the Flash ROM anyhow, so filling up RAM isn't much of a problem like it is on the other calculators.

I think TI's plan is to provide the TI-83 Plus, though applications, with all of the functionality that the TI-86 had. But because of applications, they don't have to stop at the functionality of the TI-86, they can release more applications that do even more things, so that users have a wide range of choices.

I don't know... it seems an awful lot more convenient and easier to just get an 86... after all, if you want a calculator to look like and feel like an 86 so much, isn't the 86 a better choice? And it's only, what, $10 more?

Oh, I think I finally understand what you've been saying... instead of making an 86+, they'd just make an enhanced 83, so that their main audience buys more of it and it's practically an 86+ anyway... yeah, that makes sense. That's a good point.

Hey, I just got an idea... What if TI doesn't WANT to upgrade the 86? What if they realized that the 85/86 line isn't that good at all, with the 83+(or SE) being able to do many of the stuff the 86 can do through software, and the 89 only being +/-$30 more expensive and with an advanced CAS? That would mean that TI would be RETIRING the 86! That would be sort of sad, considering that 1) The 86 is a very good calculator, and 2) I'd be about to have a discontinued calc. Oh well... I hope TI realizes what they're doing and changes their plans (unless their plans aren't what I'm predicting). Another thing I realized is that sans screen and mem/flash, the 83+(or SE) and 86 have the same hardware (correct me if i'm wrong.) This would mean that someone, even TI, could write a flash OS update for the 83+ and make it identical to the 86 in math. I mean, the 86 was out for (I think) 5 years, and if TI was serious about upgrading it, why didn't they do it already? Something must be fishy here...

True... With 1.5+ M of ROM, it would probably (except for the screen) to write an OS with CAS superior to TI (Z80, but 15 Mhz, TI's poorly written)... Comments?

I personally own a TI-83 Plus and like it very much, but one thing that is in TI-86 could never be replaced by an 83 Plus, that is the screen size. The width resolution is just a little bit higher in an 86, but that would allow a bit more text in the TI-86 style menus, etc. Also, there is something about the LCD that is better in TI-86, right. So how can a TI-83 Plus (even SE) replace TI-86? After all, no applications can be made to increase the screen size...
By the way, programs on a TI-89 can be run from the archive, so they are pretty much like apps on an 83 Plus.

I believe that two apps preloaded on the TI-83 SE are not free ($7 each), and the Graph Link is about $17, so that is $14 + $17 = $31 of extra stuff in the SE, so the extra speed and memory are pretty much free (if you buy a Periodic Table, Organizer, and a Graph Link for Windows ONLY).

I wonder if anyone is still reading these comments...

Actually, Cell Sheet won't be free either, but it will be for TI-83 Plus SE buyers. So for the $35 extra dollars compared to the regular TI-83 Plus, there will be $21 worth of apps and a Graph Link. (Of course, TI did offer $28 worth of apps for free when buying a TI-83 Plus last summer...) Seems to me, though, that those apps are not worth it for personal use, and not too many schools will actually care.

If the 86 can serve someone's needs past school, doesn't that make it a more powerful calculator? It would give people serious about math an advantage.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. From what I make out, you say that the 86 programs in BASIC would be worse than the 83+ programs in Flash ASM. That would usually be true, but only if both programs are the same. You see, the 86 programs in BASIC have many more features than the 83+ Flash applications, for example the periodic table. So really, the 86 BASIC programs can be better than an assembly Flash app.

Why not just call it an 84. Remember the 82 is just a watered down 85 and no mater how many times they upgraded it it was still inferior to their second calculator in terms of much of its more powerful higher math functions such as its calculus features, the 86 can handle all of its more powerful features. Every time ti comes out with a more powerful 8x calc, it seems that the formula for the 82 seies has been overachive the selling points. The 85 was suposedly not very user freindly (I found it very easy to use) so they came out with the 82 which was suposedly very easy to use (I disagree there though). Seeing the calc to be impresively inferior, they created the 83 which added asm, adv stats, and finance all of which had been accomplished on the 85, and then again on the 86. Then the 89 came out shortly followed by the 83 which was designed purposely to outshine the 86 with more memory, and flash rom, but the 83+ still was not in league with the 89/92+, so now it goes into its next stage of evolution to attempt to outshine the 89/92+ with more flashrom/archive and faster archive. Will it stop!? I think not.

The problem that we are all discussing is that TI is trying to make the 'user-friendly' lower 8x line become the only line of z80 calculators, while the 85 and 86 are much more powerful, and the extra 2048 pixels really help with graphing and stuff. TI is also trying to give the lower 8x line a calculator for "power users", but that simply will not work because the power users use the 85/86/89/92+.

I still don't see what the big issue is. Let's just say, hypothetically of course, that TI was getting rid of the TI-85/TI-86 line. What happens? Well, the TI-83 Plus has, or will have through applications, most of the TI-85/TI-86 features, so people who want such features can get a TI-83 Plus. Then there are the people who have don't like the 83 Plus menus (again, fixed by an application, but oh well), have some sort of issue with the RAM size (not in any worse shape than the TI-86), or have some moral adversion to the TI-83 Plus (You know who you are... ;). What will these people do?!?! Well, how about buying a TI-89? If someone wants more power than a TI-83 Plus, why bother with a TI-86 when a TI-89 is not that much more expensive (the prices would probably converge even more if TI released a TI-86 Plus) and it has all the power you want?

The 86 Has some advantages over the Ti-83 in lots of areas. Primarialy:

1) Bigger Screen
2) A Cleaner Menu system that can be accessed without blocking the graphs
3) A all around better Matrix system that can hold larger matrices and handle lots more numbers
4) Unlimited Pictures as long as you have memory for them
5) A slightly better BASIC Language. Although the Ti-86 has the Slowest Basic Language of all the calcs.
6) A better overall variable scheme which allows more than 26 variables. this also includes matrices and lists.

The real problem with the Ti-86 however, and probably one of the reasons why Ti isn't planning to make an 86 version any time soon, is the fact that the OS really slowed down Vs The Ti-85. They didn't do the memory correctly so the calc was in some cases 4 times slower than the Ti-85. BASIC Programming for games was just about out of the question because of this, and ASM Games had memory restrictions that was a pain for ASM Programmers and theoretically made a Ti-85 have more accessable memory than the Ti-86. Basicially, it screwed just about every programming venue that it could possibly have.

Dont get me wrong. People still programmed for it, but the games were not as good as they could've been if the calc was built better in some places.

I wouldn't retire your 86. The 86-OS still has much better capabilities than the 83, except for Flash. And then almost all of the few things the 83(+(SE)) has that the 86 doesn't, you can d/l off the web. I would rather take around two calcs than retire my 86 to an 82 series calc. And for 82/83(+(SE)) users, don't flame me, I realize that the 83+ and SE have good capabilities, but the 86 is better.

Great, I just got the 83+. I'm just waiting for the Solar-powered edition of the 83+ to come out. (Why not use TI-84? Just curious.)


Hopefully, TI will come out with a 92+ Silver Ed, at least tripling its memory. To be able to do more with the 3D-Grahping would be great.

Unfortunately, I read that this edition will still have 24K Ram Limitation, but that should not matter with the tons of applications that come with this edition.

An 86 Plus? Probably not, I think that the 86 is on its way out.

Eddie
Owner of 81,83+,85,89,92

This 83++ is crazy.
24k ram with 1.5m rom is bad.(83++)
24k with 160k is more realistic, but still bad.(83+)
200k with 700k is ok, (89)
it would be like a computer having a 30 gb hard drive, and only 100 meg was usable. the memory should be a lot more. 24k programs are kind of small in this day and age. the 89 has few programs under 24k, and in fact, many 60k and more.
They should have added flash rom to an 86, because the 86 has 90k, with is great, for a calculator. (only the 89 and 92+ have more)

Some TI-86 people please correct me if I have anything mistaken. From what I know, the TI-86 has a similar program size limitation as the TI-83 Plus. Not all of the RAM of the TI-86 can be loaded in the banks at the same time, thus programs are limited to 20 something K here too. TI-86 programs get around this by having external data files that are kept in other parts of RAM, and TI-83 Plus programs can get around this by having external data files that are kept in other parts of ROM. I agree that 24K of RAM is a bit skimpy, but it's not so bad as you make it out to be, relative to the 86.

P.S. - I will quickly admit that I have very little knowledge in terms of TI-86 hardware/software, but this was my understanding from conversations I had with people. Feel free to correct!

While the calc has given memory restrictions, it has been overcome by using certain programs whiched allowed it to run 85/82 programs with more ram used, however this probably would not be an option with a flash 86, TI fixes "mistakes" fast.

Sorry, but you are wrong this time :)

The TI-86 still wins by having so much free scratch space. Programs are copied to an 8k area when executed, and there is an extra 16k of free memory for use by an executing program. So that gives you 24k of memory for a program to use, that even a beginning asm programmer can make use of. Plus, being temporary memory, you could do something like completely trash your program's ram (say by overwriting most/all of it with dynamically generated code), and you won't harm the original program.

If you need more space, and don't mind playing a few tricks with the OS, then you can get an extra 8k of memory by not using ROM calls and overwriting the system area (just have to put it back when you're done, or bad things happen :)

There is another trick that can be done to gain 16k of additional memory, which is useful for say a large tilemap and set of graphics. Manually swap out the data so it's in a fixed place in ram where the ROM call table normally lives.

So in total, you can have 48k of contiguous ram for use by your executing assembly program. Hmm, that just doesn't compare to the 83 line, does it? Besides the fact that you can do nice looking, flicker-free four level grayscale, on a 128x64 screen, versus black and white on a 96x64 screen. And if you look at games like Maze-3D and Megacar (which could very easily be grayscale), it becomes clear that there's not a lot you can't do with a 6 Mhz Z80, if you are clever enough.

Well, I had a feeling I was wrong, that's why I put those disclaimers in :) I was just surprised it took so long for someone to point it out. Usually people snap at me the second I say something silly.

Anyhow, some of those tricks can be played on the 83 Plus as well (like not using ROM calls, and getting rid of system RAM), and in total you could probably pull off a 30Kish program running in RAM (The largest I've run is 16K, but more is definitly possible). Now of course, that's still less than an 86, and you still can't do greyscale (well, we'll have to wait and see for the SE I suppose), but my point was that the loss, in terms of RAM, is not so important. How many TI-86 programs do you know that are 48K, and couldn't be accomplished just as well on an 83 Plus by having parts of the data archived ? (Well I don't think there are any 48K TI-86 programs, but you get my idea :) Most anything (notice! I didn't say everything!) that 90K of RAM helps you, you can get from using Flash ROM as well.