Survey posted 1999-10-31 02:09 by Andy.

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Go other and Happy Halloween! Try not to forgot to set your clocks back and hour.

Wow... z80 BASIC is kickin' butt (2 votes)! :)

Z80 TI-BASIC for the TI-86 is the only programming language that I know right know (seeing how I don't have any other calcs yet, that is the only BASIC I know, but I will learn 89-BASIC when I get an 89), but soon I will be learning Visual Basic.

Does anyone know what BASIC stands for??

Go Z80 BASIC!
{(it's about time there was a new survey)}

According to an old book from 1975 that I have, BASIC stands for: Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Visual Basic, in a nutshell, is not worthy of the nutshell because it sucks nuts as a language. Try Delphi which uses Pascal and is a TRUE OOP language.

(BEGINNERS All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code <- shit it was made for beginners, but that's as far as it should go. Hell, it shouldn't even go that far. Hell, i'd swap ti-basic for ti-C/C++ or ti-Pascal if it were available.)

What are you talking about? VB let's you draw your programs, run them in the Windows environment to check stability (if possible w/Windows), allows many of the functions C/++ are known for, plus Active-X originated for use on VB. If you plan on writing games for VB, Microsoft's DirectX 7.0 now allows VB programmers better 3D Control. [Unfortunately, it's a ~120MB Download]

It sucks that VB makes you have object files like vbrun400 etc. on your hard drive in order to run programs. I made a program in Delphi and in VB once (virtually the same code) and Delphi's was a straight-up executable at about 250KB, while VB's was about 900KB (and I needed vbrunxxx as well)! Shows how much Microsoft optimized their software, huh?

~ferich

Microsoft Visual C++ is better. You can draw your progams,code what can't be done interactively, and compile it as a regular program with its own Icon. The only thing that sucks is that it cost like $500 for the professional edition that lets you sell your programs and like $1000 to get the one that comes with all kinds of other developers tools. I have the normal one so I can distrubute for free.

actually, Borland C++ Builder does that. It is basically vb for the c++ language. Visual C++ (i have version 6 and 5) does not allow you to make programs like vb does.

So I'm not the only one who's heard of (and programmed in) Delphi. I was intro'd to Delphi about 2 years ago and learned it from reading one of those 1600-page books (something like Mastering Delphi 3.0 or something). Delphi ROCKS!!! As for VB, it sucks, the only people I know who use it are AOL hackers and wanna-be programmers. ANYway, VB sux and Delphi RULES!

~ferich

Delphi sucks even though it's better than Visual Basic which is the worst toy programming-environment in the world. Try C++ Builder if you need a RAD.

QBASIC rules!

QBASIC sucks compared to other languages but verson 7.1 lets you compile a .exe file and run it, same with verson 4.5.

P.S. Its illegal to download 3.1, 4.5, and 7.1 for free but I know where to get them. verson 1.0 and 1.1 are free versons that you can get off of micrsofts ftp site. I forgot where it was though in all those folders.

<flame>
But they also said it was "all-purpose"
so if someone makes a graphical starcraft that runs slow as hell in B.A.S.I.C. it cannot be "convicted" for abusing what this language was meant for
<flame>
LOL
HAHAHA

I used to know. isn't it Binary something. I think it means english to binary or something like that.

Come on z80 asm people put in your votes. The only thing good about basic is that it is a higher control level and you can make a program faster than you can in asm. Try making lotus turbo challenge in basic, I think not. asm rules. basic is okay. Anyway All z80 votes go.

...and thus the problems inherit in the TI programming community are exemplified.

Programmers: Stop trying to create TI BASIC games and distribute them! The limitations of the language are all too evident, and pretty much every idea is already out there. If you want to release something, take the time to learn assembly for your calculator, and make something _useful_.

Levine

Hey, I made a pretty cool TI-BASIC game(Stock Wars) but, I do agree with you mostly. A lot of BASIC programs are very slow. Right now I'm working on an OS for TI-83s.

Ug! Did you not just read what I posted? There are already several 'OS's out for the 83 - in assembly - that will do everything your BASIC one will do. Want to work on it for research purposes? Go for it. I simply ask that you don't release it, because there's no need for it.

Levine, fed up with crap BASIC programs

Hey, don't say that, I am making an OS in basic/asm for the 83(+). I have finished my BASIC only verson of it. This OS will be an OS not a shell or just a GUI. When you turn your calc on this is what comes up. I'll make it so it is just like running to OSes on the calc. You can turn it on the mine or TI's. I will treat TI os is to DOS as my operating system is to a mixture of mac os, windows, and linux. Right now it takes up 5k on my calc.

Uh... You can turn your calculator on and off in Ion as well (hit ON key)

Just wanted to throw that in... I am not being cynical about your OS at all. I think it's great to have more OS available, since TI-83 plus has only one available OS (which happened to be Ion)

Thanks.

Games aren't the only kind of program. Most people use BASIC for math programs, which it is much more suited for than assembly. I agree that TI-BASIC games pretty much suck, though.

Hey.hey hey... do not under estimate the power of basic. Assemblies anyway, you know why, IT IS NOT STABLE....YOU LOST DATAS EVERYDAY. AND THAT MAKES IT SUKIE. I program BASIC and I never had a problem with it. I can manipulate it very well without having to reset my calculator every 5 minutes as with imperfect ASM prgrms.

-CasioX

That's why I only put stable programs onto my TI-89. I don't use the newest version of DoorsOS because it crashes to often. The older version 1.0 is much more stable. The only thing that's on my calc where I'm not sure that it's 100% stable is LexOS because it's an internal beta test version.
In other words: Asm programs are stable as long as they're well written. With the correct selection you don't have to reset you calculator for months.

Only crappy assembly programs are unstable. A GOOD programmer who takes the time to test evey line of a program can make assembly programs that NEVER crash.
You always need to reset your calc??? Stop useing shitty programs.

Shhhh, you'll provoke the programers again. Sometimes peoples calcs get reset because the crap up their ram like crazy. My calculator never resets for asm and it's an 83 plus (ahhhh) they are supposed to be the most unstable calcs for asm right now. I carefully maintain my calc and defag it not defrag defag. Some programs are faged and attempt to fix them, usually the author or porter fixes them before me. I also have made a recovery program incase of accidental ram reset. Replaces everything that was in the ram as if nothing ever happened.

I agree. I've created more than my share of TI-BASIC math applications. But the main difference is I never released any of mine, nor added title screens, or about screens, or any of that kind of crap that I'm seeing now. Anyone with 10 free minutes can do just about anything in BASIC he or she wants, and no BASIC project thus far is deserving of any sort of "About..." screen. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Levine

ASM is pretty good, I have no question in my mind about that, but for simple games like Four Out (ti-86 Basic Games, it has screenshots) it;s also totally unnecesarry. If you have a life (sorry) you probably don't have time to learn it well, and one bug can crash the calc, so you have to be perfect. BASIC works fore me, anyway... :-)

It took me about as long to learn asm as it took to learn basic

I don't think anyone really knows asm completely, except for zilog or the people at nintendo that program gameboy games. I'm sure ti does not even know every command is asm. Anyway basic only took me a week to learn completely, I have started a month ago and I have a hard time getting my programs do do something other than clear the screen or reset the ram. The only stable program I have made runs in ION and just clears the screen and pauses until you press a key, strange I learn how to do loops and getkey commands before learning to display text. This is the first language I learn some more advanced commands before the less advanced.
P.S. Can anyone tell me why calling .db "Press any key to continue",0 will not work.

Alright, you. Listen here. I've spent the last six months on a definately high-quality BASIC game on the 89 (www.andyring.com/philring83/zelda.html) . I'm already getting amazing feedback based on these screenshots alone, and no one has even played the game yet! You just wait until I release a demo, and then I'll show you what BASIC can do.

-Fil

I've seen the screenshots. Nothing the ASM version of Zelda hasn't already done on the 89. It's funny how your idea of a truly awesome, groundbreaking BASIC game is an emulation of an ASM game.

Show me something you can do in BASIC that can't be done in assembly. You know what? You can't.

Levine

directly loading anaswer into a register
ex
ld B,2000*50
cause you'd have to do
ld C,2000
ld D,50
b_call(CTimesD
ld B,A
In basic
:2000*5->B
haha

Simple basic games can be really fun. I programmed a game called 23 Matches for the TI-86 in Basic and it was small, fast, and fun. I have programmed another Basic game that relied too heavily on graphics so it was slow. Basic games are good pretty much only for simple games (with the exception of Casino86 by BKSoft). You can't program mario in basic, or a good frogger game because that relies on sprites and rapidly changing backgrounds. Basic can't do that. Basic games can be fun, though.

I like Basic and know it well, but I am rapidly learning asm because it definetly is better than basic. They are more difficult to program though because Basic puts command almost in English and asm is just letters and numbers.

You can do that in basic but it would be so slow it would take you an hour to beat mario's first level in basic. One thing about asm is that you can make it do anything from displaying Hello World to making your calc do things that your computer can (sound, fast games, turning off, garbage collecting, archiving anything, send a program, using the link to play a 2 player game, etc.). Hey, I forgot I made a stupid asm virus, crashes the calculator waits turns it off and then when you press on it resets all memory not just the ram. I don't know how I just made it in hex (pressing random 1s and 0s), compressed it, saved uncompressed program to my computer and ran it.

shut up fuck face.
BASIC can be "_USEFUL_" too. your comment makes me want to bash your face in!

Useful yes, but not for games, apps, etc. Just math programs.

Can basic do any of these thing??
Sprites?
Tilemaps?
Inveted Text?
Silent Link?
Gray Scale?
User Inturrupts?
Asaps/Tokens?
Auto-detect Variables?
Work around the 86's damn "down+left bug+?

No, at least not without help from asm programs like asapXcommand.

>Silent Link?

Has it ever been 'noisy'?
Really basic can have link games with the Get( command

>Gray Scale?
To a VERY limiited degree yes basic can work in 2 shade greyscale if you know how (but it still sucks)

>Auto-detect Variables?
Yes, but only for Lists,vetors,or matriacies and thats it.

the things you list are meant for ASM not basic. Basic has what it is meant for: math.

Silent Link:>This is how GraphLink software works. It sends vars to a calc that is at the homescreen, without using the Link menu

Grayscale:>I've yet to see a basic program with good grayscale. 2 level, yes, but there is more of a flicker than an actual grayscale. Some asm programs have as high as 8 level grayscale that has very little flicker.

Autodetect vars:>I meant programs. You can't make a real shell in basic. I tried, then I learned asm.

true...

No
B.A.S.I.C. is for what ever you want to use it for

Beginer's
ALL-PURPOSE
Synbolic
Instruction
Code

>Can basic do any of these thing??

Sprites?> Yes.

Tilemaps?> If you mean how the maps on the thousand or so zelda games out there are drawn, Yes.

Inveted Text?> Yes, It's takes a xorpic placement with a black picture sprite the size of a character, but it can be done.

Silent Link?> yes. using the Send( command.

Gray Scale?> 4 level using a stationary picture and 3 level moving the picture around. Yes I know it's not 7 level but it's still greyscale.

User Inturrupts?> not sure what you mean here. If you mean Getkey's then yes. If not, most likely the exec command could do it.

Asaps/Tokens?> Don't know what you mean here either. again, Exec could probably do it.

Auto-detect Variables?> About the only thing it cant do.

Work around the 86's damn "down+left bug+?> well, considering all of the above is for an Ti-89/92+ BASIC, I guess it wouldn't be a problem.

Silent Link?> yes. using the Send( command.

That's not silent link.

User Inturrupts?> not sure what you mean here. If you mean Getkey's then yes. If not, most likely the exec command could do it.

Getkey isn't an interrupt. And guess what - 'exec' is assembly!

Asaps/Tokens?> Don't know what you mean here either. again, Exec could probably do it.

Same thing - exec is assembly.

And I'd like to see you do sprites/tilemaps/grayscale/inverted text in BASIC anywhere, even remotely as fast as ASM.

You can't.

Levine

>>Silent Link?> yes. using the Send( command.

>That's not silent link.

Then please tell me what "Sllent link" is, because When I attach two Ti-89's together and type sendcalc(<prgmname>) on my Ti-89, it magicially appears on the other Ti-89, and it dosen't prompt you or anything.

>guess what - 'exec' is assembly!

I never said it wasn't an ASM instruction executer. The point is if the basic language cannot do the particular thing you want it to do, the Exec command can do it, without Programming an ASM program, using a Library, or making the majority of the program in ASM.

>And I'd like to see you do sprites/tilemaps/grayscale/inverted text in BASIC anywhere, even remotely as fast as ASM.

That wasn't the point of the original post. He asked if it COULD be done and it CAN. Any moron can tell you ASM is going to be faster Vs basic, the point here is that 68k basic isn't the puny language that everyone assumes it is, and it can do a lot of things the ASM programs can do. Just not as Fast.

yo joe!! inverted text in basic is possible on the 89/92 without using pics, greyscale is definately possible (i've done it before), sprites in basic are possible on the 68K calcs! so just becuz your mister asm master, dont talk about things u don't know, like basic!

The 89,92,92+ have a bunch of basic features that "de-cripple" basic, but I was referring to the 86 and older, as that is my area of expertise.
I believe only the 86 has the down+left bug.
In 86 basic, true grayscale is impossible, I don't know about the newer calcs.
User Inturrupts are sort of like tsr's. there are screen shot programs that use this, as well as the patch for the down+left bug.
Inverted text is impossible on any z80 basic program, but is on 89(?)92, 92+
asaps/tokens are like a rom extension, well, sort of. a program that puts special command in the custom menu. most asaps add the features missing from 86 basic(i.e. inverted text, rom calls, and the ability to mess around with iy flags.)
No the Send( is not silent link.
Yes, I know, you can tile map in any basic, any calc, but i've yet to see basic tilemapping approaching the smoothness and speed of assembly.
As for zelda, the zelda for the z80 calcs is all assembly, I don't know about the ones for the 68k calcs.
As you said, your references were to 89,92, but mine were for 86.


I'm done now.

BASIC CAN HAVE AUTO DETECT VARIABLES USING getType() on the 89. heres the syntax that stores 5 to A if A doesnt exist, and leaves it alone if it does

if getType(A)="NONE":5 -> A

Shut up, mr. know-it-all. your comment makes me want to bash your face in, also! you obviously think u know alot about BASIC but u r completely clueless! On the 89 u can have auto-detect variables in BASIC, GOOD GREYSCALE, and yes, you can have inverted text! i can make inverted text without using any pictures or anything! THINK BEFORE U TALK, JERK!
SO FUCK U!

as you said. 89
as i said. 86

The "down + left" bug also occurs in assembly programs. I haven't seen any assembly program where that doesn't happpen.

BASIC is not useful for games, in any way, shape or form.

Levine

I will have to disagree that TI-Basic is not useful for games, in any way, shape or form.

The only type of game that is useful is a text based game such as Hic Quest or Drug Cartel.
These games use large portions of text and do not need to be sophisticated like asm games.
In addition, many high school students enjoy these games and still have them on their calculators along with Mario, Tetris, etc.

I do agree that there are too many low quality basic games.
There are also some asm programs (like Kill Bill - no offence to the programmer) which should have been left on the computer or shown in a lesson as a programming example, not posted on the web.

Basic Programmers - Please only post new and creative programs. We do not need 10 different versions of black jack. Distribute your games at your own highschool.

P.S. I program basic for the 82 through 89 and I only have one game on the web (it is a port of Drug Cartel in the ti-89 section ti-files) even though I have written hundreds of programs in basic. Only one of my own games is truly unique and worthy of being on the web. I have not posted it even though it has been around for three years. I made copies of it for other students who had an 82, 83,85,or 86.

Hey, I made a pretty good (fast) basic game with graphics and all (poker) but it's really diffucult to create nice, fast basic programs with any graphics at all. You have to be a very conservative programmer to make any basic program worth it.
I agree, ASM IS 100 TIMES BETTER and well worth the time spent on learning it!!! Those basic programmers out there need to learn asm! If the problem is needing help on getting started I (and I'm sure almost any other asm programmer) would be glad to help. We need more GOOD assembly programs!!

We have lots of good asm games, just too many of them are either clones of each other, or half ass ports that may or may not work.
PEOPLE:
try to be origional, or at least make a game far better that the one it mimics, and make sure ported games work as well as the did on the origional calc.

Well then will some nice z80 asm programer make a guide on programing z80 asm for the 83 plus before I go and ask someone who it would make no sense for me to ask (eg. microsoft).

If you give me your e-mail I'll send you the best z80 tutorial ever (well the best I've seen that is understandable)

I am very willing to learn ASM but every tutorial I have found is very confusing. I can make very simple BASIC programs but wish to do so much more.My e-mail is
Sthemutater@aol.com

Well, teach me on Z80 Asm and I'll recode the TI-86 raycaster for 82/83!!

I want to know where the 6502 ASM equivilents to STx (where x is the register) absolute mode is in Z80 ASM and more...

I would gladly teach you, but unfortunatly, you probably already know more than I do about asm. I know the basics and am currently trying to learn how every last bit of the memory on the ti-86 is layed out. Only then will I be able to output some awesome programs. If anyone has any simple ti-86 assembly questions, e-mail me.

BASIC has its limitations, but ASM is by no means perfect, either. Has anybody EVER had BASIC crash their calc? Ever? It's possible that running a BASIC program triggered the crash, but ultimately the fault lies in ASM. The moment you give a programmer unrestricted access to the hardware, the hardware can be wrecked. BASIC is a safe, coddeling language for those that need something like that. Thosse that need the warm, fuzzy comfort of padded walls have that in BASIC. If you don't like it, by all means, go ahead and boycott it, but I've had TOO many calc crashes to use ASM very much.

Another good thing about BASIC is that it can be eaisly ported from one calc to another, and doesn't even need to be ported between some calcs (92+/89, 86/85, and 83+/83)

Dunno about any of y'all, but I currently use BASIC cuz I'm a beginner (betcha 50 bucks some jerk badmouths me on that) and like wots-is-face said, it's a beginner's language, plus the fact i don't know assembly yet! It'd be better if you suded both cuz a majority thinks Asm is better for advanced games and BASIC is better for text utilities, math and not-so-advanced games. If you use both you can make a larger amount of good programs. (When I say both I don't mean to mix them into one program)

sorry, meant to say "used", not suded, oops :)