Survey posted 2000-09-12 16:16 by Andy Selle.

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I think higher math classes should teach so you don't need to calculator. My last 3 teachers requred a calculator and I became addicted to the calculator, I just about couldn't do anything w/o a calculator.
This year, my teacher teaches so we don't need a calculator. We do all our derivatives and intagrals by hand and we don't do any memorization of intragration or derivative rules ([sinh^-1(x)]' = whatever [you see I don't even remember it but i can still solve it. y=sinh^-1(x); x=sinh(y), dx/dx = d*sinh(y)/dx, 1 = cosh(y)*dy/dx, dy/dx = 1/cosh(y); since cosh^2 + sinh^2 = 1, cosh = sqrt(sinh^2+1); so dy/dx = 1/sqrt(sinh(y)^2+1); y=sinh^-1; dy/dx = 1/sqrt(sinh(sin^-1(x))^2), dy/dx = 1/sqrt(x^2+1) - sure its a little longer, but it isn't any harder than memorizing it and you gain the cofidence of knowing its right :) .]).

Are you saying that you are taking an entire semester/year of calculus, and doing derivatives / integrals using ONLY the definition? That seems like a complete waste of time. It can take you a long time to do complex derivatives and integrals even using the rules (which are easy to prove using the definition). I fail to see how working an entire page of calculations to avoid memorizing a few of rules is productive.

After working out the formula from the definition it would take the mental power of a Zen master NOT to memorize the rule!

-Ben Kalafut

A _few_ rules? I'm sorry but I don't think 24 trig rules (i'm including derivatives and integrals of each) is a few, especially when the results sometimes differ only by a few +'s or -'s. Not only that, but there are even more special functions in higher math which are also simular. I think it would be more worth it to know that is it right instead of trying to sort though the rules. And yes, my class is going the whole semester like that and (assuming the same teacher) next semester too (math32 or 3rd semester of calculus).

If you're taking 1st or 2d semester calculus, I fail to see how you can be given credit for your work if you're using a calculator with CAS capabilities. Most teachers demand that you show your work; otherwise little if any credit is earned, and rightly so, in my humble opinion. If one is going into Computer Science how would one expect to program heavily math dosed programs without a firm understanding of the math behind the program. If one hasn't memorized all the rules for integration and for derivatives as well as many, many trig identities, then that person is not a master of his/her discipline. Also, if you never learned your math well, then you can expect to forget it all the more quickly. If you need to integrate an elliptical integral you'll find you have little choice other than a table of integrals, but for most integrals you should be able to do them unaided or use a numerical integration method. In fact, you should try and use a ti-89 or similar calculator to check your work not do your work while you're in school. You'll have plenty of opportunity to forget your math once you graduate and get a professional job.

you know... it's all about mental math! =) until you start doing problems dealing with radians, sin, cos, etc., brain power will keep you sharp. even in algebra II... no calculator till you reach conic sections. that's basically my school's policy =(. a plain $15 scientific calculator will get you through precalculus. when you hit calculus, the ti's come in handy =)

I think calculators should be used for some math functions. In Precalculus the teacher told us to use the calculator whenever we were solving a system of equations with 3 or more unknowns. (We used matrices). Suppose you have a 10x10 matrix that you want to find the determinant of. The calculator is much quicker, and won't make a mistake.

You can't believe how easy Calculus becomes if all you can use in class is a simple TI-30X Solar scientific calculator. I took AP Calculus AB in an exchange year in the US, and it was about five times as hard. I'm not kidding. A TI-89 doesn't help you a lot if you have to show all the steps (which my teacher required), and in Germany the style of teaching is also a lot different. While in my country you have to think a lot more, the US seem to emphasise on getting the correct solution to a problem. There was never a single true discussion in my math class.

Math education in the U.S., especially in the government schools, leaves much to be desired. Students don't usually learn any real mathematics until high school. Up until then unless they're put in an "accelrated" (that is to say, not as dumbed-down as everyone else) course it's basically counting or memorization of multiplication, ways to add fractions, the division algorithm, etc, without a single explanation or hint at what they're really doing or why it works. Even in college (and I'm at a private university, although with how much intervention and federal regulation there is, what's the difference now?) in the early math courses (for me, multivariable calculus, linear algebra), if you wanted to actually learn the math rather than just how to get the correct answer, you had to study that on your own and see the professor during office hours. Now that I'm out of the courses that the engineers are required to pass, things are a little better...

A TI-89 doesn't help in a class. It's a tool in the same way that an electric drill is; it's much quicker than working things out by hand. Texas Instruments promotes the machines as "Educational Solutions" and the people running the illiteracy mills believe the claim. Having a calculator or using a calculator will never help you learn how to do math. I agree with you 100% Although the governments, economic systems, and even school systems (very socialist!) of Europe leave much to be desired, at least over there they know that students are in school to learn, like it or not! :-)

> Although the governments, economic systems, and even school systems (very socialist!) of Europe leave much to be desired, at least over there they know that students are in school to learn, like it or not! :-)

Governments: I'm sorry I have to disagree on that one. While it's true that the parties forming the coalition that's currently in power in Germany are a "social democratic" and an environmentalist party, this doesn't mean that the government structure is not as democratic as in the US. Some things are different, for example unions have more influence while lobbies have less, and the chancellor, the "highest position," is elected through indirect election by voting for a party. But all in all it is very similar to the US system; after all it was partly modeled after your system of government at the end of WWII. While it's true that some things are not ideal (e.g. public election on major changes is not provided for in the constitution), I have to take a closer look at the US and see that death penalty hasn't been abolished and everyone is allowed to carry weapons.

Economic systems: Maybe. You're right if you mean that there is more government control on economics. However, economic expanditure (sp?) shows that this is not actually a problem. However, the extremely weak Euro is one, and I believe it has to be solved quickly. (How do you get investors at wall street? :-)) The gas crisis in different European countries (and maybe soon in Germany as well) also is an issue which is discussed a lot, since taxes on fuel are high. However, this seems to be a more global problem affecting the US as well. (Anyone know how to handle OPEC? Or do the US get their fuel somewhere else?)

School systems: Yes, they leave much to be desired. However, I really like the concept of not having to pay anything for college except your rent, now that I've been close to Cornell ($10K/year), and read that Nick pays $36K/year at Northwestern. You can get scholarships in the US, true. But I think the fact that you have to pay this much for a good education only widens the difference between the education of children of poorer and richer families.

This is not supposed to be a generalization on all of Europe. In countries poorer than Germany, it sometimes is a lot different. This is just to show that the US system also leaves "much to be desired." Which in turn doesn't mean it's bad, but you should always try to see things in an objective way, if at all possible.

Of course I agree with you on the calculator part, but maybe the term "illiteracy mills" is a little too extreme. It's really not that bad and could be a lot worse.

OOPS! Sorry about the long post...

Governments still change...Just look at Germany....Fischer now wears a tie.

The U.S. mainly gets their fuel from OPEC, with a tiny bit coming from Alaska.

Normal = Start "real" math in 9th grade.
Accelerated = Start "real" math in 8th grade.

TNK

True, U.S. math sucks (in ca. atleast). My algebra teacher in junior high was absolutely terrible. I didn't learn a thing, and all we did learn was equations to memorize. When I changed to private schooling I was in for a very big shock. My teacher wouldn't let us use calcs throughout geom and most of alg2. That's both graphing and non-graphing calcs. He is a very good teacher though so he helped me with what I lacked to learn in algebra1. He also explains every chapter that we go through. He doesn't just plug in numbers and tell you to solve, he actually explains why things happen and why the rules are what they are. Well, my teacher used to teach at Georgia Tech so I got what I payed for.

Another good thing about my teacher (sorry if I seem like I'm bragging) is that he doesn't allow answers to be in decimal form. He wants everything in fractions if they are not whole so that we won't be tempted to just use the calc when things get a tad sticky. Every teacher should do this.

I know that this is off topic, but...
The statement "I got what I paid for" is pretty funny, considering that on the average, private school teachers are paid less than government school teachers. Per pupil expenditure is also less. Proof positive (although the fact that the Green Party is mainly composed of rich people already proved this) that money doesn't make you smart!

Yeah, you're right. More money doesn't make you smarter but it does make you more knowledgeable. or, atleast, it can.

I agree, I went to Germany in 6th grade, and we wern't even allowed to use ANY calculator. In 8th grade I visited an Austrian school. Here we were only allowed to use a scientific calculator. One dude got a TI-92, which inspired me to get one as well. Yes..... that sounds stupid, TI-92 in 8th grade, but I still used my TI-30xa Solar or whatever. The TI-92 was just for fun.

In 9th grade, Algebra I at the American International School, in Vienna, Austria, I just used the TI-92, then the second semester in the U.S., I was only allowed a scientific one. Sooooo, I conclude, the higher the standard of living at a school, the worse the math skills....... Oh well. As far as scientific calculators go, the new TI-30X IIS is really cool. It has a two line display, so you can see all of your input.

Now I "traded" my TI-92 for a TI-92 Plus, and bought a TI-83 Plus. So my calculator inventory now consists of a TI-30X IIS, a TI-83 Plus, and a TI-92 Plus. I am now ready for any situation.

TNK

Here in the Netherlands a new school system has been introduced. A lot of things got harder, but one of the good things is that we get a calculator (TI-83) from school. That means we (have to) use it on *every* test. The teacher also explains some things, like how to use the binompdf function and to let it draw graphs.

As you may have guessed, I voted yes :)

- Olaf Jansen, 16 yrs (in 5 VWO), MCP, A+

When I took differential equations, our prof. banned all calculators. It made for an interesting course.

I say they sould give out TI-89s at kindergarten :)

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you should **** yourself because:

1) You obvuiously do not have any advanced mathematics experience

2) You probably do not even know how to program

3) If you needed a ti-89 in kindergarden then

1) You must have been a du****** to need one

He probably wasn't being serious, just like I'm not being serious when I say that you ought to go back to kindergarten because you can't count to four.

NO WAY..... At least a TI-92 Plus!!!!!! :)

At least?! Is there a calculator that does more than the 92+? <g>