Survey posted 2000-09-12 16:16 by Andy Selle.

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pre-algebra=no
algebra1=no
geometry=once in a blue moon
algebra2=towards the middle of the year, yes
trig=yes
calculus=yes (although most people would probably use mathematica or something like that)

My algebra 1 teacher always let me use calculators (I'm not talking about graphingcalcs) on tests and homework and all and that really didn't help me at all. Cuz when I changed schools for high school and got a new teacher for geom, he wouldn't let us use any calcs until near the end of the school year. When I got to algebra2, he still wouldn't really let us rely on calcs until we got to the nasty stuff in the mid of the year like polar graphing and limits and sines. Now, in trig, he says we need calcs and he even recommends a graphing calculator. This teaching without calc aid has really helped me take the time to learn how to do math in my head. So I think calcs in such low classes as algebra and geometry and even before those, can be harmful. Unless you use them responsibly.

Sorry if I was rambling on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on......

I disagree with your statement about not using calcs in lower math classes. I am a freshman in highschool, and I use my 86 all the time, but I use it to double check my answer for when I make a dumb mistake (ie dropping a negative, adding instead of subtracting, etc.), but however not too low. You need to learn the concepts first, then let the calculator help you with some tedious calculations (ie 2.538*420.0091), but you should ALWAYS know how to do that with paper and a pencil(pen). Just so you know, I voted NO on the survey. My math teacher last year said no calculators, which was the year I got my 86, so I was somewhat disappointed at the time, but now I thank him for it.

Notice how I said, "Unless you use them responsibly." It seems to me you use your calc resposibly so it is ok. I just meant don't let it become a crutch because learning the essentials with paper and pencil is very important.

2.538*420.0091 isn't tedious at all. The answer is about 1e3.

First off, I kept seeing your comment there, I am now frustrated at seeing it so much that I have to respond. Say you are in math, and your teacher doesn't let you use calculators (surprise, surprise) and you have to do the aforementioned problem, and you need an EXACT decimal (or, for more sadistic teachers, a simplified fraction (although TI's can do that in about .000000000000000000000000000000000000001 ns)) answer. There are 3 ways to do this. The first is to cheat by using your calc. The second, less reliable way, is to cheat of someone else. And lastly, and the least reliable way, is to work it out by hand, using the multiplication algorithim so pounded into you at school. In most classes I would approach it using method 3, then check it with method 1, then find out I messed up (surprise, surprise), then correct the error, then rework the problem (hopefully :) correctly with method 3.

However, most teachers have a little sense of decency (surprise, surprise :) and won't make you do 2.538*420.0091. Without calcs.

Use...Yes!
Solve...No!
Check...Yes!

In-other-words...work out the problem your self. Do the math on the calc, and check on the calc.

I must say I disagree, Has anyone actually thought of the idea of a teacher TEACHING geometry with cabri or geometer's sketchpad for 89/92/92+. I think that that would add greatly to someone's understanding of geometry, by being able to visualize the concept. Caculators are an incredible resourse if they are only used for their proper purpose

well, geometer's sketchpad is a computer program as well which all geometry students at my high school have to buy. they also use laptops in class, and although i skipped geometry, i've heard that it does help a lot. i think that your idea is a good one... but i'm not sure exactly how useful the on-calc programs are as i haven't tried them. i have an 89 and i'm now in precalculus, and i haven't used it except for games mostly.. all i need is my little HP scientific.. i personally think that is all anyone should use until precalculus and above, you don't need it even for algebra II.

How much more visualization do you really need than making your own sketch. When I took geometry, that's what we did. We made our sketch and expanded it (adding parallels, normals, etc) until our proof was done. "Geometer's Sketchpad!" Ha! Never will it teach a student how to make a well-formed proof!

yes, it does...you've obviously never tried the program. Many students have problems in not completing their proof, the animation feature in geometer's sketchpad allows students to see if a piece could move within their sketch. it also allows you to see how a ray can move on an axis and how it affects the drawing as a whole. in addition, it allows you to make the bridge between geometry and trig, by visually linking vectors with trigometric functions, which is next to impossible to teach on paper. You obviously learned some things in geometry with paper, but there is SOO much more that your teacher couldn't teach you without the visual aid of a dynamic graphing program

The hand button don't work in it though.... :-( Why isn't the old TI-92 Geometry on AMS 2.05?

well my geometry teacher could draw and thats all the class needed and she had a dell pII 350 (thats when they just came out) and most of the math budget was left the only thing is the honnors classes just dont need it. we have a brain

I said no because, although I believe that they are very useful tools, one could get 'addicted' to them and not be able to even add without one. I actualy know someone who cannot add 276 and 834 without his calculator.

1110

without a calc...

<sarcasim> dang, your smart </sarcasim>

I am personally glad that I had my 83 back in 8th grade where I was in Alg. 1. Though it was not required until Alg. II this year (10th Grade). Although this is the first year that I have actually used it for graphing and for its intended purposes, those two years that I had with it gave me a great jump on the other students. It took them one hour to learn to type in the following program while it took me about 15 seconds not to mention explaining the code to them:

PROGRAM:RECUR
:100000
:For(N,1,15
:Disp Ans
:
:Ans+12
:END

Now that program seems useless but we use it to solve recursive routines if you wanted to know. Anyway, I am gald that I had mine for I now know the calc like the back of my hand.

I only wish the other kids would quit asking me questions.

-Doug

Be careful man. You sound like you are right where I was. (Read my post above.) If not, that's kewl, but just keep out a wary eye.


Dark Ninja

"Simple math becomes trivial with a calculator. Simple math becomes incredibly hard with a calculator. It depends on when you choose to use that calculator that will determine your path."

(Wow...I'm impressed...I came up with that all by myself. ;-)

Very profound.

Suprisingly, I was only the 7th person to vote for "Not Sure". I think that having calculators in lower-level math classes such as Geometry and earlier actually hinders learning. Some people would go out and buy an 89 for Beginning Algebra thinking "Hey, this calculator will just do everything for me!" and that's not a good idea. Having basic algebra skills and beyond is something that will help tremendously in the future, and a calculator that does everything for you won't help.

-Fil, who just realized he just wrote what is probably the most profound statement ever written by him on a ticalc.org newsboard, sheds a tear for his former $0.02, and hopes they're in good hands

Well, of course not ALL math courses, that's just silly. And for what? Calculators should be used to do "legwork" but not the material being studied. It would be acceptable for a junior high algebra student to use his calculator to plot graphs or estimate sines, cosines, exponentials, etc, but not to actually do the algebra. Same thing for a high-school calculus student. Doing partial fraction decomposition or solving the quadraitic is fine, but doing integration is not acceptable.

For some classes, I cannot see use of a calculator at all except as a cheat sheet. Like plane geometry, analysis, abstract algebra, number theory, etc. What would be the use?

Equally wrong are calculator requirements, especially in junior high and high school. If a student does not want or cannot afford a calculator, he should not have to have one. If a student owns an 82, 85, or 48G, he should not be required to buy an 83 just because that is the only machine a computer-illiterate high-school teacher or college TA knows how to use. The student should be able to use a slide rule or a logarithm/radical/sine/etc table if he wants, as long as it's appropriate for the course.

At no time, as well, should course time be taken up with calculator instruction. The illiteracy mills (government schools, I spent 8 years in 'em, so I know...) dumb students down enough by giving them 8 years of arithmetic--high schools need to make up for it by providing students with a solid base and actual understanding of the material. Students can read manuals, and if they can't understand the manual, the calculator isn't for them!

On a related note, the purchase of calculators by schools is silly. It's not going to make students any more intelligent or government schooling any better. It's just a waste of resources! Independent schools, in general, don't do it, because they can't afford such waste.

I got by without a graphics calculator for my first year of high school (that's Algebra II/Trig for me, for those who are curious). I clearly remember solving systems of linear equations (by the Gaussian reduction algorithm) quicker than people typed them into the solver on their 85s. My senior year, before I got the 86, I was doing problems quicker than my classmates who owned 86es, 85s, and 92s, with an 82 and some pen and paper. Even now I use the calculator more in science courses than in mathematics, and when I use it it's for the legwork.

My advice to younger students is this: Buy a calculator, read the manual. When you're working a section of your math homework, work the concept of the section out by hand, always. Only use the calculator to do what you have already learned and are comfortable with. After the section is complete and you have passed your test, write programs to do what you have learned, if the feature is not built into the calculator, or download and examine existing programs which do the same. This sounds like common sense but you'd be amazed at how many people don't do this. It worked for me through high school and continues to work for me to this date.

-Ben Kalafut
"A Jedi builds his own lightsaber."

> If a student does not want or cannot afford a calculator, he should not have to have one. If a student owns an 82, 85, or 48G, he should not be required to buy an 83...The student should be able to use a slide rule or a logarithm/radical/sine/etc table if he wants, as long as it's appropriate for the course.

I agree with that. Nobody should be forced to spend money on a calculator if the one he already has works perfectly well. If you have an 82, there's no reason to buy an 83. Not even for statistics. (In that case, just download StatKit 82.)

i totaly agree, my alg II teacher encouraged us to use aslide rule which was provided for us. i was the only one who used it over the class set of 83's and the other calcs students owned. a slide rule is just a powerful in the right hands as a 89 if not more. esp when the student doesnt know how a calc works (ie order of opp)

If a student does not know order of operations, he or she should never have passed pre-algebra.