Survey posted 2000-04-05 01:54 by Andy.

Contribute ideas to surveys by sending a mail to survey@ticalc.org.

Is there a website that you can goto to learn asm????

Shameless plug:

http://www.asm86.cwc.net/ and I might even get round to updating it next week. It will feature a fully-commented, documented etc. demo game that will definitely win every award in existance (I'm actually nearly finished writing it). Maybe.

Ciaran McCreesh

cool site, but how about for 68k assembly?

also there should be a site which doesn't just tell you "use <insert command here> just because," instead "use <insert command here> because: 1) the first thing it does is _____... 2) the etc..."

in other words, a more user-friendly tutorial, such as TI's manual for basic (i don't know how user-friendly that is, but it's all it took me to become proficient at basic)...

Hey, check out what I have done so far at mogsoft's site. We have 3 tutoricode (secret button, greyscale, and lookup tables). To save your time the only sections available are Survey, and Tutoricode. I'm working on the site as we speak but I have no word on when I'll finish.

BTW: the greyscale lesson only works on HW1 calcs - sorry.

Sorry if this got posted 2 times, I am having trouble with my internet connection =(

Be sure to email me when that gets posted.
Thanks :)

--BlueCalx

Don't worry, I'll advertise it all I can :)

Ciaran

I voted ONE WEEK, yet I am not very good yet, but I cant make more than simple stuff, I had something that was somewhat good I made on calc, calc crash, since then I havent been able to make much more.
But to learn the basics and everything, about a week(--2 weekends)
----------side note--BASIC took me about 4 days all by my self and my TI-86 book.

Anyone know where to learn Asm for the 86?(i have awsome ideas for a perfect shell)

For really good TI-86 ASM information, go to http://ti86.acz.org in the tutorials and also the links section. It also helps to look at the 86/source/ section of ticalc org. Mini Shell Enhanced 1.4 source code is there, so that may help with what your doing. Hope this helps.

Brian

I used to make these exquisite little programs, but now I program simpler, practical programs when I need them. I don't see any need to move into assembly. If I need a program that badly I can do it in BASIC or download somebody else's program of ticalc.org.

Laura

For what I do, Assembly is not needed. I mean, look at it, for almost any calculator, what makes up the most of any assembly programs? GAMES! and guess what? you don't really NEED games on your calculator. I program small Algebra II programs so that I don't have to spend 5 minutes a problem on tests, and if I were to program in assembly, all that it would decrease it the time loading. not much else. It's fun to program games, true, but assembly is the bitch goddess of all programming languages so I'm not going to try any more.

Fool, Yes Asm is really only for games, I havent seen a worth while asm math prgm ever.
But for Math BASIC is fast and easy
O yeah! for TI-86 I made a great and fast and small Synthitic Division program that show it in the form you need to just copy to get full credit.
And asm for math takes forever, but is about 50 times smaller and faster.

Asm is about 30 times better than BASIC but it is hard, while BASIC is really just an idiotic language for VERY VERY VERY early beginners, or people who dont care or want to be real programmers.

Let me remind you that ASM rules in math over Basic as well. Just what do you think the OS of every calculator is written in? =P

Jason_K

correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought that the 92
+ and 89's OSes were written in C.

Actually, the OSes for all calculators are written in C, then compiled to assembly. Why? Because assembly SUCKS!

i dont think i'd say that around here. :)

nevertheless, id make a rom in C rather than asm... there is so much available source

Well, I would. :)

Laura

Don't knock BASIC until you've seen what it can really do? Have you ever played the Zelda Demo?? I wrote that in BASIC and it's awesome, and still getting better as I work on it every day. It easily rivals, if not surpasses, a lot of ASM games out there. So don't throw BASIC out the window until you've really worked with it and seen what it can do....

-Fil and his $0.02

Perhaps on the 68k calcs BASIC is worth something. However, BASIC on the Z80 calcs is very limited. There's not a lot you can do with it.

BASIC: Beginner’s All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Notice the 'Beginner’s' part of it. BASIC was not intended to be a powerful, highly efficient language. It was designed to be easy to learn and use. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing your Zelda Demo program, I’m sure it’s very good. My point is simply that Asm is a more powerful and efficient language, if you can understand it.

I would agree with you that BASIC on the Z80s isn't much, but it can be quite powerful on the 68k calcs. If you know how to use it right. It just seemed like his comment above was dismissing the language entirely, as nothing more than a joke-language that somebody came up with.

-Fil and his $0.02

Hey, although Z80 BASIC is probably alot more limited than 68K, it can still do quite alot. not only can it manipulate values and stuff (e.g. math programs), but there have been some okay games for it...Yeah, and when we're talking Pokemon vs. Digimon for the 83Plus, now THAT'S some REAL BASIC...i sure would like to learn list->pic BASIC skills...how can you change you TI-Calc.ORG (i did that on purpose nick :-) ID??

Steve and HIS $0.02

Pokemon just sucks, that's all I have to say.

Laura and HER $0.02

i didn't mean the plot was cool, I meant it was cool because it did the neat thing (which I'd like to
learn)
list->pic->list
and you're right. i was actually dumb enough to sit down and play the whole stinking game on my no$gmb (DOS-based free color gameboy emu)...so watch out man (woman, whatever), I'm a Pokémon master...
:-)
(duh)

Okay, I'm scared.

:-)
Laura

doesn't BASIC stand for BASIC All-Putpose Symbolic Instruction Code?

No, actually it stands for Basic All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. Not Basic All-Putpose Symbolic Instruction Code? Just clarifying things. :)

Laura

No, actually it stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.

And the prefix determines the type of basic
TIBASIC - Texas instruments BASIC
QBASIC - Quick BASIC
GWBASIC - No clue...
PBASIC - named after the company that developed it, Parralax

GW-BASIC. It is my understanging that it means Gee Wiz BASIC. As for TI BASIC, it was according to ANSI Standard,back in 1979. Before it was TI Power BASIC. Then there is TI Extended BASIC. What is being called TI basic today, is a TI BASIC. But it is set of calculator languages. BASIC is commonly an interpeted language. So while it is more compact as far as size because it is commonly tokenize rather then compiled. There was Quick BASIC which was a Microsoft compiled BASIC before QBASIC which has be replaced largly by Visual BASIC. It should be noted, that TI Extended BASIC was the first low cost BASIC (that I know about)that supported true sub programming using a CALL and the program name obtionally using parenthesis "()" for passing varables. QBASIC allows this too, but must be delcared at the begining of the program, where as in TI Extended BASIC the prescan took care of this. Of course Assembly and Compiled languages will run faster then interpeted langauges. High level languages are easyer for us (humans) to use. Lower level languages are harder. Assembly just above machine code using mnemoics in place of the machine instruction. Then of course the is commputer language grammar called syntax. (Not sin tax ;]

Heh, I never thought of TI-BASIC like that. But, I don't program that "super advanced high power max speed" calculator, the TI-99/4A.

The TI-99/4A, while it was made by the TI calculator divison, it was TI's Home Computer. 3 magherz. 16K graphics memory. Hook up to a TV set. Then of course there where the ad ons. The CPU was the massive TMS-9900 16 bit chip. But only had 15 bit addressing. The Vido Chip was the TMS-9918A. The same chip the Coleco Adam computer used. But the Coleco Adam was a Z80 computer. The Timex-Sinclar was another Z80 computer.
The TI-99/4A had better color graphics then the IBM with CGA graphics, until EGA and now super VGAs. A full emulator of the TI-99/4A is avalaible to run on a PC. $96.00 include copies of licenced ROM's. And for an extra $29.00 all the TI ROM based software (on disk of course)is made available. Since TI no longer supports it, it has all be licensed out. Now about the speed of TI-BASIC on the 4A. Slow..... The Tandy small color computer (not the CoCo) 1.5 MHZ CPU. Its BASIC while not better was much much faster. The reason for this is that TI-BASIC (on the 4A) was doubled interpeted. The BASIC interpeter was written in anohter interpted language, just for the TI Home Computer. GPL. Graphics Programming Language. Looks more like assembly language. But was byte oriented much like a Z80 and other 8 bit computers. The TI-99/4A, while it was a 16 bit computer inside to the operating system ROM. The all the rest of it was 8 bit. GPL and all. Kinda like a 8086 being made into a 8088 but using hardware to do it.

Dude, it stands for Basic All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. Not Beginners. There is so much you can do with QBASIC, BASIC, and TBASIC that to call it a beginner;'s language is just heinous. Yes, I'll agree that you can do much more with C++ or D++, and that it is used so much beacuse it is easy, but even though it is a good language to start with, it isn't a Beginners ASIC.

Akira

Yea, what he said!

Actually, on second thought, its probably a Basic ASIC. :)

You regarding B.A.S.I.C. said: "Dude, it stands for Basic All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. Not Beginners." Actually you are mistaken. BASIC is the acronum for _B_eginners _A_ll-purpose _I_nstruction _C_ode. It was originally designed to teach programming. Was latter replaced by Pascal. Today BASIC is more than a beginners language, agreed.

You regarding B.A.S.I.C. said: "Dude, it stands for Basic All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. Not Beginners." Actually you are mistaken. BASIC is the acronum for _B_eginners _A_ll-purpose _S_ymbolic _I_nstruction _C_ode. It was originally designed to teach programming. Was latter replaced by Pascal. Today BASIC is more than a beginners language, agreed.

You know, I always understand things a lot better if you post them twice, that just made my day.

Like the guy above me, but also look at all the APPS that have been written and are being made. They are pretty much strictly math and do a very good job if it. Well...point being: There are 500+ rom calls (going by 83+ stats), with mcuh more than 75% dealing with math related functions. If you don't agree, go prove yourself wrong by visiting www.ti.com/calc and find the 83+ SDK Guide (*.pdf file) and look at all the math rom calls.

Matt H.

Speaking of TI-83 Plus ROM calls, is there any web site that just lists all of the subroutines in the ROM(with descriptions)? I don't know ASM right now but I'm trying to learn it so a list of all the functions/subroutines would be nice.

Thanks.

REAL PROGRAMMERS?? What defines a real programmer?! Quit trashing BASIC; on the 89 it can do almost everything ASM can do just a little slower. and all you people that say u learned BASIC in 4 days, no you haven't. maybe you learned some simple functions. but you haven't mastered techniques to make programs faster and more memory efficient. most people that make BASIC don't know Getkey. I was quite offended by your post. you're implying that we're too lazy to learn ASM. just try the BASIC zelda, now that's a good BASIC program.
plus, some ASM programs are really crappy. i could make a basic program better than quite a bunch of those ASM programs. and when i say better, i don't always mean faster or with better graphics. a game is supposed to be fun. what's the point of a game with excellent 3D graphics and greyscale if it's boring as hell? i don't know about you, but i'd rather go with the BASIC game "not as good" graphics or slower. sorry if i offended any1, i'm not saying BASIC is better than ASM. but BASIC can be very useful. and i am a "real programmer"!

Amen!

preach it brotha!
(no I'm not black, and I have no quarrel with my friends of that decent, so don't even ride my case)
is that 5 posts this early tuesday morn??
:-)

Not to critisize you or anything, but her name is Laura and you're saying "preach it brotha"? Since when did Lauras become brothas?

okay, that's fine. Are they both Lauras? yikes, that was bad. I was just refering to this one weird channel, where they have this guy up there preching fire and brimestone (its comical is the point in watching it), and sometimes they have african-american services, and every time the "preacha" says something, uh, not cool, but you know, some dude from the back yelps a big ol' "preach it brotha!"...so now everyone knows what Steve does for laughs...
sorry if I offended anyone...

:):):):):):):)

Laura

(Amen^2)

(Amen^2)

good call chris. btw, where do you get the basic zelda version?

You can find a basic version of zelda at ticalc.org, i don't know if it will work as well as assembler thoah. All that depends on the calc. and the version.

basic cant do EVERYTHING asm can do; it sure as heck can't dump the ROM or zip/unzip programs...

not making fun of basic or anything, just stating some facts :P

Amen.


<SARCASM LEVEL="HIGHEST POSSIBLE IN THE WORLD">
BASIC sucks because you can't create mem-trashing viruses like you can in ASM.
</SARCASM>
(PS: Virus writers should burn in hell.)

What you just said is crap. I am a programmer, not for calculators. I feel no need to know it. Most of the programs I make are simple programs that I need, I use them, and when their usefulness past I delete them. Simple as that. You people who know ASM simply look at as your little "thingy". The facts are, nobody needs to know ASM if they don't want to program games. And what's in it for ASM programmers. Oooo, maybe they can manage a web site on the side or something. Get a life dork!

Laura

wtf, biotch, who are you to judge him? I have two words for you.





Danny

wtf yourself! ASM is on the way out. Like I said before, if you know C++ or Visual C++ you can get a job ANYWHERE as a programmer. If you know ASM, guess what you can do!? You can make crappy games in your free time and maybe manage a web site on the side! REAL programmers make programms to make their lives easier! They don't go out and learn some hard complicated language that they can't do anything with. Come on! Don't be stupid!

Laura

i'm sure you get this alot. but I love a BASIC programming babe with an atitude...its only to bad I'm not Fabio...well okay. but either way (male or female) I do agree with what is being said here. BASIC programs come with a built in INTERPRETER, AND TEXT-EDITOR. ON THE CALCULATOR BRO! Just press the [PRGM] button. you can make your own program! wow..actually, Visual C++ is nice, and you can get a job @ TI (immediate openings) for z80 assembly...all i do is program short nifty things till I'm done with them, or I reset my RAM (isn't that fun?)...go State (Michgan, spartans...that's where I'm from)
Steve

I think she said she programmed C as well, just thought I'd let ya know.

That doesn't make any sense.

You can program, edit, and compile asm programs on the calc too. It's called ZAC for the TI-86. Look at the program description in my URL above.

Impulse Tracker - http://www.noisemusic.org/it/

This free assembly program program was used in the creation of some music tracks for Unreal and Unreal Tournament. And ASM's USELESS? This tracker is super-fast, and runs awesome on a 486. C's not THAT efficient.

Oh yeah, Impulse Tracker's a lot more stable then most other trackers I've seen, FYI.

BTW, note that it was written in ASM and is not a, as you say, "crappy game" and the programmer is far from, as you simply put it, "stupid". He made a marvellous, popular program in that "cryptic" OS called DOS. And guess what? It's still popular today...

<sarcasm>Yup, ASM's worthless, alright.</sarcasm>

Oh yeah, another thing. If ASM's on the way out, then how come machine language (the computer's direct translation of ASM) seems to be used to communinicate with, hey, what do you know? Every electronic processor conceived! Wow...

Things that require ASM that aren't games:

Network/comms (e.g. BS2com, MBus, MChat, IR Link)
Virtual test equipment (e.g. TI Thermometer, Logic Analyser)
Memory Expanders (e.g. PIXpander, Expander II, Expander SF)
High performance maths (e.g. Prime ASM)
Special purpose (e.g. Periodic Table 82, Calendar 83, Cont@cts)

As the Serbs would say, NE SERI (Don't talk crap!).

How many ASM programs can be programmed in Visual C++ and converted to ASM? How many things use Visual C++ as compared to assembly. How many jobs are open to people wanting to program in Visual C++ as compared to ASM? I thought so.

How much faster does ASM go than C++? How much memory do you save in ASM over C++? How much more control over the machine do you have in ASM? Sure, this might not matter much if you've got a Motorola PowerStack with dual 400MHz AltiVec equiped G4 CPUs and 384 MB of RAM, but a calc only has a 6MHz Z80 CPU with 32kB of RAM/mass storage. You have to save as much time and memory as possible.

TI CI OPICEN!

How many people use ASM? How many people out there have jobs programming in ASM? I thought so!

Laura

how many times are we going to ask questions in one post? :-)
C++ is much faster than ASM. ASM is actually a dumbed down C, and C++ is actually a dumbed up C, with classes. So there. Now, when you're talking Visual C++, then you have the power of Visual BASIC (darg and drop forms/OOP programming) and the massive power of C, which is direct unlimited acces to memory (stack,and heap). plus you have classes that C++ has. and a few other bits and pieces. BASICally speaking, both are rather dumb, because who in there right mind is going to say "ASM is better than C++ because ASM runs faster", when in reality, the Assembler they are using was probably written in C++, and the linking software, etc...so BASIC once again rules because of its built in Interpreter/program editor...I don't usually carry a laptop around to make ASM and then send it to my calc...
Steve and HIS (is that $0.06 now??)

What are you talking about? I don't think you understand how high-level language code is parsed and compiled into a program. Ultimately, all programs get translated down to the assembly level. Therefore no one language is faster than another. How fast a program runs depends on the skill of the programmer (and sometimes the compiler helps out too). It is possible for a good C++ compiler to generate better assembly code than the average person, but chances are if you've spent some time learning asm, you can do optimizations that the compiler will miss because it doesn't have as intimate a knowledge of your program as you do.

Poo Poo on you for dissing Steve bastard!

<sigh> Why do I even bother? Anyway...
I wasn't dissing Steve, I was just rejecting his claim that "C++ is much faster than ASM." But since you bring up the subject, his claims that "ASM is actually a dumbed down C, and C++ is actually a dumbed up C, with classes" are obviously false as well. In reality, BASIC is about as dumbed-down as you can get without sacrificing too much performance, while asm is the most complicated, hence the "least dumb." And anyone who thinks C++ is just C with classes probably just heard that from someone else and has never programmed a halfway complex C++ program before. If you don't believe me, go out and ask someone who is in a position to know.
Anyway, to change the subject, why do you think that people who program in asm will never be able to get a job anywhere? I would think that companies would snach up all the asm programmers they could get, after all, once you've learned assembly, any other language is cake. Of course I doubt there are many people who have put the time and effort into learning asm yet don't know any other programming languages. If you know asm, to a company that's a bonus. It will make you stand out from the rest of the crowd. So stop dissing asm as "hairbrained shit." It may not be worth your time to learn it, but don't judge others who happen to like this kind of stuff or it comes easy to.

-Kouri

Poo Poo on you!! :)

Laura

I forgot, ASM sucks, if you need facts read my other posts around here, I don't want to reiterate them.

Laura

Let me reiterate some of the "facts" you've stated for you:
1) Pokemon sucks.
2) BASIC stands for "Basic All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code".
3) "Nobody needs to know ASM if they don't want to program games."

I'm sorry to say that the only one you got halfway right was the first one.
For number 2, go to http://www.advanced-basic.com/help and look at that first question there.
For 3, I dare you to tell an embedded or real-time systems programmer that. If you think asm is only used in games, you are sadly mistaken.

-Kouri

I really wish these comment boards were moderated.

Okay. In this 600page book I have read on C++/Visual C++ for begginers, as well as a 400pg book on Borland C++ Buuilder 3, you need to know that C++ IS C WITH CLASSES (the include files defning functions etc.), every time you say, compile!, the preprocessor runs, and inserts the include file (.h in c++ usually), right where the #include <iostream.h> (or whatever you put...C++ is a dumbed up C, but not dumbed, more like, smarted up...ASM is infact a dumbed down, specifically for smaller RAM, and slower processors (BTW, the gameboy is 2MHz slower than my 83Plus, and is just a slightly edited z80, i have a program where you can actually assmeble .gb files and run them just like gameboy games, don't know the code, but...). I have read a few 83 tutorials, and the SDK guide from TI on the technical jargon that is worthless for calculators. see, everyone who has a calculator, has to have a PC to program ASM, so I figure, go for C++, because you've got everyone then...
1) Pokemon sucks, I agree with ya there
2) BASIC is a very very dumbed down programming language, in fact, its a high-level language, unlike C++, you cannot have the power of direct memory access, and every time the program executes, an INTERPRETER runs, and directs the computer where it needs to go, as opposed to C++, which is compiled, and translated to machine code (binary, hex, etc.), and then linked to an .exe
is that clear enough for ya?
Steve

oh wow. Do you want me to give you a medal for reading a beginners guide to C++? Do you not think that the Operating System you are running on your happy little PC was developed in Assembler. Your points have little or no validity, are often wrong, and are based largely on opinion. You have tried to make points by either vague assertion or a copy of what you found in your wonderful C++ for Dummies book. Furthermore, do you actually think that Kouri Rosenberg needs an explanation on how to compile a C++ program. So, I say to you, go back to your burger flipping world of debugging C++. You can have a great time with a 40k a year job writing database software for a Internet startups. I'd rather take a bullet in the head than do that. I'll be sitting with my feet up on the desk at the top of the skyscraper I built by writing Assembler and Microcode.

-harper

okay buddy. know this:
i just wrote a 10page thing dissing the crap out of you and your dumb calculator assembler. but I realized that was just stooping to your level. which would be childish of me. so, i forgive you for dissing me, and treating me like i'm some type off begginner, wether you like it or not buddy.
it's actually to sad that ASMers have to be such jerks if someone doesn't like the language. I mean, even the BASIC interpreters are probably in asm, but so what? and its not C++ for dummies. its the technical guide to MS VStudio, the VC++ part actually. i can't really help it if the author opinionates me...by to the message boards and childish arguments that get neither of us anywhere. for good.
Steve
http://www.megahelp.org

you know, every time I read your post, i get even angrier. but hopefully I can control myself enough to say something with "little or no validity", is that okay?
My thoughts that I am trying to state are:
I do not, and cannot like assembly for the calculator I own. Because, thanks to Joe W. and Ion, no one ever programs for TI-83 Plus assembly. except Dan Englender, which btw is an awesome ASM dude. the reason that I enjot BASIC (for calculators only) so much, is because i don't have a laptop, and all that stuff to "make programs on the go". nor do I have an 86 that can edit its own assembly. however, I do believe that C++ is an assembler langauge (correct me if I'm wrong), that is only more powerful than ASM because of the machines it is designed for. TI-calculators are awesome toys to have around. but honestly, how many people say "gee, I think we should get a new family calc, our 73 is to old to run anything good." Plus, how do they get in touch with other programmers? The 89 doesn't have its modem yet (although it would be nice to get an X-modem....) so, in retrospect, I will continue making/editing BASIC programs, and settle-ing for less quality stuff, because I can take it with me everywhere. I will also continue my joruney in to the 32-bit world of C++/Visual C++, because I believe that it has much higher market and skyscraper capabilities than my calculator. I will also continue to respect the ASMers of all time for TI's calculators because of their genius in learning something I found to hard to master. but I will totally blow away anything that someone could agree with from my "speach", by saying that ASMers are still seeming stuck-up to me. hopefully we can reach a compromise. have your people call my people. and tell Nick to get a new way to post messages, so they don't take 30minutes to load up the entire page when people like me start yak-ing, okay. And to the childish statement of not returning to the boards, heck! I'm addicted. and I do apologize for any childish behavior that I have stooped to. okay, enough preaching. btw Kouri and Haper, you web-sites are awesome...

I didn't say ASM was for games bastard, Akira of HLC said that! I also said...

1) Not many comanies use ASM like they use Visual C++
2) In applications where ASM IS used, most often the code is programmed in C and is compiled into ASM. (including the OSes of TI calculators)
3) Basic is actually worse than ASM, but ASM is more trouble than its worth when it comes to programming stuff.
4) If you know Visual C++ you are guaranteed a job somewhere as a programmer
5) That's the case with ASM.

I'm Laura Thompson, and those are the facts. Bastard.

On the contrary..

I said that ASM's usefulness in CALCULATORS is limited to games. I have yet to see a good math or science program in ASM that you can't do in basic.

ASM is actually used quite frequently in large companies, beacuse VC++ is a lot slower(not as slow as BASIC, but slower) than ASM. It is mainly used for debugging(ever clicked debug when an error in windows occured? That's ASM.) and modification(expansion to an engine) programming.

Ummm, try reading your response to my original post on this board and see where I got that. Also I believe that you yourself said that anything in ASM could be programmed first in C and then compiled or otherwise converted to ASM. I also know that getting a job as VC++ programmer is a lot easier than getting one as an ASM programmer. Ever try to get a job programming in FORTRAN? I don't think so. Sure ASM may have its little niche, why would people learn it if it didn't. I'm just saying that VC++ may not be as good as ASM, but VC++ is the most widely used programming language for a damn good reason. Maybe because its easier to use? I don't know for sure. Just compare it to Windows and Linux. I've used both, I personally think that Linux is the better OS. Yet Windows has over 95% of the market. So I use Windows on my own computer because I don't feel that knowing Linux like I know Windows will accomplish me anything even though Linux is the better OS. Same with VC++ and ASM. Which one do you think is used the most? What do you think Windows itself was programmed in? Not ASM I know that for a fact. So in my opinion taking the time to learn a programming language like ASM is not worth my time. If I need a program on my calculator I use BASIC, if I need a program on my computer I use VC++. ASM isn't necessarily on its way out, it will be around for as long as there is hardware in computers, all I am saying is that it will NEVER be a widely used programming language I'll venture a guess and say that more than 97% of people that program know VC++, and that's not saying they don't know other languages as well, I know BASIC, Visual BASIC, VC++, HTML, and JAVA.

Laura

1. Fortran is a dead language dude, but it has some fuctions you won't find anywhere else.
2. ASM is compatible on almost any system. is VC++? NO!
3. in your opinion. Exactly. IYO. Don;t get cocky.

Quote:
"Also I believe that you yourself said that anything in ASM could be programmed first in C and then compiled or otherwise converted to ASM."
Actually, Not everything. VC++ is a good language, but it doesn't have the core functions that asm has.

"What do you think Windows itself was programmed in?"
Windows was programmed in Borland C++ origanally, Windows 95 was programmed in VC++, and because it replaces DOS as a operating system, ASM! DOS was programmed in ASM.

and if you know java, perhaps you could tell me how to do a pop-up window in a web page(don't go copying code now) or a picture change highlight window? Perhaps a menu applet?

HTML isn't really a language, it's more like scripting..

Okay jackass I said FORTRAN is a DEAD language, I never said I knew Java, in fact I don't. ASM is a low level machine type code, it may be used for simple things, but never anything big. I asked somebody who's programmed longer than you have lived so I think he knows what he's talking about. ASM will always be here, but it will never be popular, no body uses it to make anything really big, or usefull, even if they do they program it in VC++ and compile it to ASM. Those are the facts. Not my opinions, and if they are opinions they are from experts who have more than 20 years programming experience, I'd believe them before I believe some rebellious hairbrained little college or high school student with no hard core knowledge or experience in the field. And if you [Akira of HLC] would take the timet to read my posts instead of picking out stuff to lambast you might actually learn something. If that takes too much effort than you are willing to exert why don't you go back to your little Half Life Center and do your little thing. Because I don't care about your half baked ideas. Need I remind you [Akira of HLC] how many of your petty little arguments I've thoughouly dismantled? Do you want me to start listing them? I didn't think so.

yo go laura!
:):):)

"The facts are, nobody needs to know ASM if they don't want to program games." - That is a direct quote from one of your earlier posts.
BTW, your second "fact" doesn't make any sense, your third "fact" is actually your opinion, number four is just plain wrong, and I think you left out a "not" in five, but I am impressed that you managed to get it wrong anyway.

Okay, if you know VC++ you are guaranteed a job somewhere as a programmer. Do you want me to start listing examples, I know of at least 25 different organizations that need programmers. Not ASM programmers, VC++ programmers. My third fact is stating that ASM IS a better programming language than BASIC, but BASIC is only a gateway language. I learned VC++ after I learned BASIC, I didn't learn ASM after I learned BASIC. I don't know what planet you live on, or what mental disorder you have but YOU are the one that has your facts mucked up. Ans sure ASM might be faster than VC++, but when did that matter? When computers were a brand new thing maybe, but not now in this era of 1 GIGAHERTZ AMD Athlon prosessors, and comprable Intel chips. Even on my PII 333 MHz computer with 128 megs of RAM I don't think you'll notice much difference in speed, maybe a few seconds, but that's not something people notice. Sure you know ASM, what can you do with that? Program TI calc programs in your free time, manage a web site on the side, and maybe program obscure applications that need ASM. But the fact of the matter is, I can get several jobs programming in VC++, with a base salary of $40,000-$65,000 according to DeVry(no I don't go there). And you'll notice that's just a base salary, that doesn't include the doors that A) knowing VC++ will open for you, and B) the future job opportunities that job experience will gain you, if you have your Bachelors in CS, and an MBA you can get a senior level position within 10 years. I've researched this topic extensively so I know my facts, this is what I'm going to do with the 80 someodd years ahead collectively known as the rest of my life. Even if ASM is better than VC++, even if I do end up learning it someday, I won't use it as much as I use VC++. Right now, I see no need whatsoever that tells me that I need to learn ASM, it's hard to master, not used a lot (not as much as VC++), and won't get you the same job opportunities that VC++ will.

Laura

I have 2 programs that do the exact same thing, determine the mandelbrot fractal, one programmed in ASM and one in VC++. The one programmed in VC++ takes about 2 min to compute, and the one in ASM takes about 15 seconds.

Oh, did I mention, I have a 300MHz Pentium II with 64 megs of ram and a Voodoo3?

The result: ASM is faster, but harder.

Let me remind you of how ASM works as comared to any form of C. C is a higher level programming language that is easier to program, and can do more in a windows environment (I use Windows, I'm not sure how it works on other platforms). ASM is a low level programming language, and is not used on anything big, or so says an SA I talked to who originally learned to program on punch cards. I think he would know what he's talking about. Give it up Akira, I know your passionate arguments often crumble at the hands of logic, reason, and fact. I really would hope that you don't want me to mention specifics on a public forum.

"And sure ASM might be faster than VC++, but when did that matter? When computers were a brand new thing maybe, but not now in this era of 1 GIGAHERTZ AMD Athlon prosessors, and comprable Intel chips. Even on my PII 333 MHz computer with 128 megs of RAM I don't think you'll notice much difference in speed, maybe a few seconds, but that's not something people notice."

That's the kind of thought that made "half-life" the only decent game releasead in a VERY dark age, because programmers just didn't care.

Laura, please, please try to take some computer science classes at your local community college or something sometime. That's all I can say to you.

you know, I think this conversatition between Kouri, A_HLC (i can't remember you SN, so please forgive the abbriviation), Laura, Harper Maddox, and myself (with few others), is going straight down. no spiral even. why don't we scratch it all, and then totally come back, thinking as humans should. reason some kind of thing out, and keep this thing in control! this is why i'm prone not to like ASMers, if they just wouldn't be jerks back!!
:):):):)
totally a joke btw...
Steve

It's funny, all I said in my original post is that I see no need to move into ASM, and all this started, my education is even starting to be questioned. And I'll admit that I have stooped pretty low myself. I think this has gotten way too nasty, partly by my doing. I guess I shouldn't take people's posts so seriously. I'll agree with Steve, we should kinda straighten things out... a little.

Laura

okay. i actually went out and sought a worthy ASM program that was non-game. and how the heck does it work? if I can get it figured out, ASM will have a new look to me. I will not bug ASMers space, and continue to let them make their games, as long as somethings useful come out good. it is:
TxtView!!! Sounds neato. won't agree with my 83+. Here is what I do:
send txtview.8xp to calc
type simple ASCII text file
run it through "calctext test.txt test.8xp "Tester" "
send test.8xp over.
run asm(txtview)
<or whatever it is called>
then it blinks and says "Done"
now, "under" my cursor is a little black square (about 4x4pixels), and it will keep doing this untill you hit clear...weird
if you can help me out Kouri, i will stop proclaiming my opinions all over like the law. and it would also prove to me that ASM has something better than galaxian...thanks
Steve

Okay, that post is so dumb I won't even gratify it with a proper answer, just read some of my posts and you'll find out the truth about me. THink before you post bastard.

You go Steve!

Laura

Ummm....Basic may be a gateway language for beginners, but what does ASM do for you? NOTHING!! What can you do with ASM? NOTHING!! Basic is a gateway language that opens the door to useful languages like Visual C++. Dude, get the facts.

LIONHEARTED

People, EASY!
Look, facts: BASIC - Slow for advanced thing
ASM - Damn Hard to master
C - Best compromise.

Now, basic is sometimes great to start and for anyone who doesn't want to bother losing a lot of time with it. Anybody who only does assembler is obvioulsy masochistic. But, such as most compiler manufactures WILL tell you, there is a very important part where ASM DOES matter, in all those tight loops that repeat over and over, like pixel drawing, which ASM undoubtely speeds. Even if most of the program isn't done in ASM, those little things can and DO make a diference, trust me.

Yeah, just remember the next time you play Quake 3 that ASM DOES NOTHING! :P
I'd love to hear you scream that in John Carmack's face. :)

John Carmack programs in Visual C++, as Q3 is.