Survey posted 2003-12-08 19:35 by Joey.

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Good reward for David Coz...
Seems he is the best TI programmer: He had already won the education.ti.com apps contest.

I suppose I should find my 89 and try some of these out before voting.

FIND your 89??? What? You don't carry it around in your pocket everywhere you go like I do?? Strange...

Well, I must admit, I don't carry mine in my pocket everywhere. It fits in my pockets, but barely. It's kinda uncomfortable that way, so I keep it in a special section in my bookbag. :-D

My V200 is hard to put in my pocket but I do put it in my pocket ;) !

So you finally found yours?

i suppose i sould buy one before voting... lol

I'd say, Pick the "I have no opinion" option or don't vote at all if you don't own a 68k calc.

and then there's VTI

... and then there are people who actually respect copyrights...

MWM

What?? People like that exist?? I would really like to meet one of these people. Maybe understand their logic. Study them to see what makes them think like that.

-that is just weird, I am W-

Besides, it's VTI, and since TI GIVES OUT ROMs, I really don't think it's a big deal. Besides, everybody downloads copyright music daily (except me... but that's because I'm sure my parents would be mad). Anyway, this is a CALCULATOR ROM.

-I agree with you, but I am not W-

Yes, there are. Like me. Say I'm wrong, but if you're not supposed to use the rom image without owning the calculator, than doing so is stealing. No excuse. Same with the music, no_one. Like it says in my bio, I'm a Christian. That's my two cents.

-TrumpetMan

way to be bold
I do agree that downloading illegal music is wrong (EZ because generally I dislike music), and I do agree that downloading calc roms is wrong. It seems sorta twisted, though, becasue it might actually function as an effective demo, like someone would want that calc if they see what it has to offer. Oh well, TI's money wasted, not mine.
As4me, I'm not going to download any ti firmware. In fact, my friend asked me to send it to him, but I guess I'm not because that would be kinda hypocritical, you know?

So am I, but that doesn't stop me from illegally downloading VTI ROM images... Besides, TI _does_ give the ROMs out for free... or, some of them, at least. And furthermore, it's not like VTI hurts TI's marketing or anything. You can't download VTI and a calculator ROM and go "Great! Now I don't need to buy this type of calculator!" because obviously, the calcualtor is much better than using an emulator.

And, you could think of the ROM as a sort of a demo of the calc... try it out on VTI and if you like it, get the calc. That would _help_ TI marketing.

I'm Christian, too - and being a Christian doesn't mean giving in to unfair laws. The DMCA and much of the American copyright law is unfair and needs to be totally rewritten. When did people gain the right to *own* music? Music is free. It should be free. It is created freely, can be played freely, and should be distributed freely. Music is an integral part of that which defines humanity. Saying that you can own music is almost like saying you can own our emotions.

Wow. I guess I really started something. About copyrighting music, the whole idea is so the people that made it get some credit. If there weren't any laws, virtually anyone could say they made the song. That just doesn't seem right.

-TrumpetMan

How do bragging rights and Christianity mesh? That's basically the only thing a copyright protects. Why else would someone say they created something, other than to show off and be proud of themselves?

To protect their royalties.

*just perusing old threads*

Downloading music can be good to a certain degree. It's good to download a song or two from a band you've never heard of, but if you're downloading entire cds, thats just plain old bad. These artists need money, too. Sure, there are big artists making millions of dollars a year, but the type of music I listen to, Christian metal, makes virtually no money. If people were going around downloading all of their cds instead of buying them, they would have to get a different job right away.

I downloaded every song I could find by Radiohead and Sigur Rós. Both bands get very little acclaim in the US. I now own nearly every CD put out by both bands. I'm not just a music swapper - I also help out the bands I like.

My major beef with the current copyright law is that it's squashing out the competition. If the RIAA gets its way, file sharing services will be shut down for good. These services are one of the biggest supporters of underground and independent music groups. Without the free promotion they get through file sharing, I and many others like myself would never have bought their CDs.

Also, there's always the fact that artists get *very* little from the sale of their albums.

>> What?? People like that exist?

Well, TrumpetMan is one and I am two, so I suppose that people like that do exist.

>> Maybe understand their logic. Study them to see what makes the think that way.

Look, I am a software developer. (amatuer, but I someday hope to make a little money off of it.) I know how I would feel if someone stole my work. Now, how could I expect others to respect my property, if I myself am steeling the work of others? Even if TI should allow people to demo their ROM's, two wrongs does not make a right! How much does the 89 cost? Is that price tag only including the hardware? If so, that looks like rather expesive hardware to me! I am quite sure that you are also paying for the software. So, if I were to download and use the software, I would be steeling -- not something I want to do.

MWM

maybe that post was a good place to use the <scarcasm></scarcasm> tags. I do think that downloading music, cracking programs, and the like are wrong. Granted I still do it, I know I sould not. As far as the music goes, I usually buy the CD after I find somethin I like.

-Reconizing the problem don't mean fixin' it, I am W-

And cracking programs _could_ be a good thing, it really depends. For example, Trillian (which is a FREE program, so people, don't get on my case) has a really horrible password encryption system for the saved logon passwords (even I cracked it!!!!! ME, no_one! Yeah, that's pretty bad, if even I can do it). Perhaps you could tell the author about how bad it is and offer suggests for them on how to improve the program. So, you're doing them a favor... in a way.

You misunderstand.

I am talking about cracking something like photoshop. Where you get the trial, and run a program that gets rid of the time limit, and the nag screen.

-W-

Stealing people's work? Geez! You think downloading the TI-89 ROM image completely replaces having a TI-89? It doesn't compare! "Look, I am a software developer." That's good!... VTI's main purpose is for testing programs! And TI does give out ROMs. It's not like you're STEALING it. It doesn't make a difference whether you ask TI to e-mail you one or download one yourself off the internet somewhere.

By downloading the OS you are legally agreeing that you own the calculator. If you don't have the calc, it is illegal to posses the OS.

I'm curious tho. By purchasing the TI-Resource CD (comes with the TI-Connectivity Kit) do you then legally own the OSs on the CD? I use the 92+ OS in VTI to test for the V200. Is that legal?

>>Is that price tag only including the hardware? If so, that looks like rather expesive hardware to me!

Let's see. The TI-89 costs betwee $130 and $180 dollars. Let's average that off at $155. Now, assume that each high school in Michigan orders 30 to be used in classes. That's $4,650 per school. Let's say that there are 400 high schools in Michigan - probably a low estimate. That's now $1,860,000. Now, multiply that by 50 states, and we get $93,000,000. Let's say that TI had 10 software programmers, 10 engineers to design the hardware, 10 PR guys to come up with the advertising, and 10 major salespeople to sell them to distributors. That's 40 people. Are you trying to tell me that each person mentioned has a salary of $2,325,000? No. My friend, this is what we call "price fixing". The cost of each TI-89 could be reduced to about $15, and that'd still be $232,500 per person involved in its production. Even if there were twice as many people, they'd still be getting $116,250 each! You can't honestly say that you think that the TI-89 is so expensive simply because of the software involved. The software should be free - period.

Hmm. Well here in AZ, schools don't buy 89s for entire classes. Heck they buy just enough 83s and a few 86s/89s so people who can't afford them can rent it for the year for like $20 or if their batteries die in the middle of class they can use a temporary calc. Besides why would a school buy calcs that could do everything. Seeing as how 89s are sometimes banned I doubt they would invest in an 89 anyways. (Buying an 89 was the best decision I ever made though.. hehe) I'm also pretty sure TI's calc division has a few more people in it. I'm also sure TI has to pay taxes so 93mil is more like 46mil minus distribution and other production costs like special software to design the calc hardware and their flash app SDK and other crap like accountants and people to run TI's website. I'm sure TI's making some sort of profit too and when you think about it all those FREE flash apps they make and the FREE OS they let you download are worth it. So just be glad they make a CAS for us to use and get really good grades.

YOU DARE REFUTE MY MATH?!?!?!
;D

Okay, I'll just pretend that I never saw that comment.

Hm... but you replied to that. Insanity plea?

Well, I started pretending that I never saw it after I hit the submit button. After then, when I hit the back button, I was really confused because I couldn't remember replying to a comment.

Just by replying you confirmed your own lies. Get a lawyer next time ;).

Actually, I think he was sarcastically acknowledging the 'insanity plea'. I think. And you don't need a lawyer to prove you're insane, hearsay evidence is enough.

Yeah! I do that too, except I have a V200 in my pocket, not an 89. I used to carry an 89 in my pocket, though!

You know what's kinda strange?

According to the times on your post and for the survey thing at the top, you posted over a half hour before the survey was even posted.

Ickk! The GMT vs CET bug is back! :-(
I need to fix that...

How in the WORLD did you notice something as subtle as that? Wow... nice.

Annnnnnyway, I think a lot of people's votes are going to be influenced by the recent arrival of Ice Hockey, since it just came out. However, I played it straight for an hour not too long ago, so I think that deserves a vote.

Also, it gets really hard to pick a choice when the programs are so different. For instance, you may need PreOS to run a really cool game. But then which is the program that you vote for? The cool game or PreOS? I'm sure everybody would vote for the cool game, since, directly, it is the fun part. You can't play with PreOS. However, without PreOS, the game wouldn't run. And then you have something like Edit3D. Like PreOS, it's a great program, but it's not really a game, so it's not... fun, I guess... I mean, it could be... Hmmmmm.... so I'd guess you'd probably have to base your vote on which program you admire the most, from a programming standpoint. That's the only way I think it makes sense to vote among programs that aren't really in the same category, so to speak. Wow... I think I talk too much. :)

----- QUOTE -----
Annnnnnyway, I think a lot of people's votes are going to be influenced by the recent arrival of Ice Hockey, since it just came out. However, I played it straight for an hour not too long ago, so I think that deserves a vote.
----- /QUOTE -----

Command Post rules! (my vote almost went to sstart, kerno, and id, but I had to choose. darn.)

well... there were only like 2 or 3 posts, so there wasn't a whole bunch on the screen; i dunno, i was kinda wondering when the survey was posted.

i agree, but i think playability/usefulness of the game and other things like that are still important. hopefully most of the ppl that vote and post aren't so narrow that they only vote for whatever gives them the highest score.

LOL! I could make a program like that!

:bigscore()
:Prgm
:ClrIO
:Disp "WOW! You win!","You're incredible!"
:Disp "Your score: ",9382938484
:Pause
:DispHome
:EndPrgm

^lol

it's got *my* vote! ;D

YES! I got a vote!

mine, too! I always vote for someone who calls me a winner!

> For instance, you may need PreOS to run a really cool game. But then which is the program that you vote for? The cool game or PreOS? I'm sure everybody would vote for the cool game, since, directly, it is the fun part. You can't play with PreOS. However, without PreOS, the game wouldn't run.
Nearly all kernel-based games are old (I'm not even sure there is one in the survey). Those who still program in kernel mode are a small minority. The major part of interesting games / programs do not need a kernel (Gran Turismo, Prince Of Persia, Edit3D, Ice Hockey 68k, Pinball, Space Dementia... don't).
But of course, several good games with no equivalent in _nostub mode require a kernel (Chrono Fantasy, for example).

KerNO is enough for those like me who want a crash protection, but do not care about kernel games and do not want the bloat due to the long kernel history / mess:
* use of absolute addresses to system variables years ago (very safe behaviour, isn't it ?);
* functions that do not match the AMS calling convention (they expect something to be in a clobberable register - very safe behaviour too)
* etc.

Lionel Debroux.

Where do I find the 83/+/SE results?

Those won't be released until votes have been received for *all* (read: every calculator's) POTY votes.

Why do we have to wait for the other calculators, before posting the results for the 83+?

MWM

That way the following catigory will get as much attention as the preivous and next, I assume.

^ yeah, i think so, too.

They can have one big article with a section on each program, too, instead of several small articles.