If we can get this shell pulled off, it's gonna be the best thing since PCI slots. Like most other people, I can't program ASM but I can do BASIC, but I can still see that this shell is very possible, but very difficult.

I agree that we should NOT attempt a knock-off of windows, for both reasons of liability and conveience. I suggest that we not have a "start bar" constantly wasting 8 precious rows of pixels at the bottom of the screen. Instead, why not a form of the "custom" menu that you can pop up and put away at the press of a button. This keeps your screen clean and allows it to be resident even when running asm or using the EOS (aka built-in TI-OS). Not to mention, captain bill winky gates and his team of man-eating lawyers won't come looking for our scalps.

Also, icons ARE very important in recognizing the difference between variable types. It's either that or file extensions, which will take up less ram but more of that coveted screen space.

Someone complained that they already have some of these features on the 89. That's great. I'll just give away my 86 and buy a new one every time TI makes a calc with a higher number. We don't all have high-paying jobs; I'm sure as heck not going to spend $150 without a darn good reason.

And now, my wish list:

Sync with PC/Calc - The 86 will already automatically recieve data from the computer via link port when running at the home screen. Why not at the shell, too? Heck, you could also make it auto-recieve from other calculators!

Schedule, Phone numbers, etc. - (I know you guys already mentioned schedule) Why buy a sharp wizard? We've got the RAM, the capability, why carry two things around all the time?

Don't worry, you people are going to hear from me again soon. I'm going to mock-up some screen shots and place them on my otherwise empty web page.

-Philibob

This OS seems amazing, but it seems as though a lot of people are criticizing the necessity of it. No, it is not all "that" necessary, but still, an OS such as this, could be an amazing accomplishment to the TI86 community. Some of my suggestions may have already been stated, but they are still some of my opinions:

1) A way to link up with the 82 and 83, maybe even the 89's eventually. Some type of program, or notification that the link is connected and/or sending would be nice. This way we know if it is actually sending/receiving, etc.

2) The start menu isn't necessary as they say, but it is a nice addition, I would like seeing how much free RAM I have left in a start menu interface.

3) I love the idea of making BASIC descriptions for programs.

4) The idea of having an Explorer like interface, so that when linked, the calculators can browse the others files, this would be a nice addition. Sort of like the Network Neighborhood approach.

5) Also, I read in the Assembly-86 mailing list the other day, on an article that told of a variable that was difficult to get rid of, using this, wouldn't a recycling bin, or something like it, be available? The recycling bin may waste space, but it is great for the times where you accidently click on the wrong file to delete.

6) A clock would be a nice component, but I do not think it is worth the extra space for it as a main part of the GUI.

I agree that the OS should be more based on the needs of the calculator, and not solely based on games, but it still can hold quite a bit at 96k. If the OS could be under 10-15k, why are we complaining? Some people are using Greyscale images that are taking up all 96k and we don't see everyone complaining on those? Still, the idea of this OS for the 86 is truly amazing, and if I had the programming experience needed, I would. Yes, I know that a majority of my writing was based on others responses, but they had a lot of great ideas in my opinion. Good luck to all the programmers and authors that are working on this. Thanks.


- Eric Matthews

Another thing that I forgot about at the time was something along the lines of a variable editor or string editor within the OS. It would be nice to add, remove, edit the variables, lists, etc. This way, if there was a TIOS for the math work, it would be possible to just stay in the OS and not have to worry about booting it each time you wanted to be in it. With the TIOS, this way we could do our school work on it, then return to the Shell without exiting and rebooting like all the other OSes do. A variable, table, graph, etc. editor would be nice. One other thing, a BASIC program editor, or a quick jump into the built in editor would be nice.

I have a few GUI Guidelines I would like to submit myself.

Plug In Support

The Idea of components is nice, but a API, or application programing interface is better. It would allow other asm programmers to design their own additions to the shell that are independent of the origional creator of the shell.

Picture Editing

One majorly overlooked area in ALL shells so far is the ability to create and edit pictures. It might not be important but it would be nice to sit in class and doodle while the teacher is ranting and raving about the correct pronounciation of "Onomotopia".

Emulation

Forget the 82 and 83. Most of the good games are for the TI-85 ANYWAY! What we need is a good emulator plugin that emulates USGUARD, Rigal, ZShell, and PhatOS, or any other shell for the 85. Also, whats the good about an emulator when you can't get the actual program on your calculator without a bunch of muss and fuss.

Conclusion

Most of the comments to this artical are negative against the idea of the start bar. I agree. But listen to this amazing idea. Remember autohide? That little check box in the startbar prefferences window in Win95? Well, get the idea?

Just my two hundredths of a Dollar!

Ok maybe I should of been more clear in my article, but this is not WindowsCE. If you take ASE and add Icons, Better TI-Basic program support, and Compression capabilities, then you have the the raw shell I mentioned above. Then there is the add-on components (which include: Emulation, String viewer, Explorer with linking capabilities, Icon Editor, and Icon library, and more) then basically you have what I described in my article. This type of shell is like ASE but allows users to expand the shells' capabilities to fit their needs and wants. The shell simply adds some things that ASE didn't have and puts them in a more graphical environment.
>Yes, hiding the Start Bar is a great idea.
>Yes, this shell was created with a calculator in mind, not a computer.
>Yes, I admit a clock is pointless, but I mentioned it anyway.
>No, this shell would be no more difficult to program then ASE was.

ok, i know you all are tired of hearing that the windows knock off is bad- im sorry, but i have ot agree.... to compensate, i have a better Idea. I need all of the shell programers to hop on over to www.xanadu.com and locate the page for Zig Zag. this is a program, currently only available for Linux (BTW, the person who mentioned commenting th code like linux earlier has an excellent idea) this program has revolutionized the way data is organized.... it is designed for wearable computers, but i think that it would be great for the TI, if not that, how about something more original.. truthfully, imj all too thrilled with navagating a windows style gui with an arrow pad.... the best thing we can do for the TI 86 at this point with shells, is to create on to seamlessly integrate with the calculator OS. This may require taking some hex dums like was done to get the 85 running asm, but it may be worth it... also, there is another problem ive noticed, 2 actually, the programs menu always gets too full, and the custom menu is never big enough..... maybe the shell would be as simple as making it possible to run asm programs from the menu without asm( and also the ability to have popup lists or scroll boxes with customizable features for at least the first five custom menu buttons. also, i have noticed the lack of ability to rename programs and files already on the calc.... let me know what you think.... i have many more ideas, but i dont feel like typing them out over the next hour..... although i will add: the ability to eit built in menus.. (add to them only.. and chagne additions)

ok, let me know what yall think... cause i might have more ideas for ya yet...

This shell does seem like a great idea, and i also agree with the person who said that 82/83 emulation isnt needed. What we need to do first, is get the program running ti85 programs well (better than ASE, and definatly better than Rascall) then work our way down. The problem with those two shells, or so it seems, is that they tried to do too much at once.. make it too catchy to people than actually deliver. I guess im just saying if you are gonna work on this, take your time.. there isnt a hurry to get it put out. I'd rather wait for an extra few months for a release than have to deal with a low quality end product. Also, if a team is going to be assembled to work on this, i'd like to be in it, and to the original writer of the article: Release the source to what you have so we dont have to re-invent the wheel.

I disagree that we don't need 82/83 emulation. There are some cool games from both calculators that haven't been ported yet or won't be. Like Mega-Man 83. I want that game real bad but until they finish at least the 85 port I can't have it. But if I had a shell that had 83 emulation I could have it, at least until the 85 or 86 port was done. Also there's FFX4. I'm not sure if it's any good but I'd like to try it. And Dying Eyes for the 82. I have no idea what it's about but I want to try it. Maybe 82/83 emulation doesn't seem necessary there are some of us that want some good games from the two calcs that aren't for the 85 or 86. And maybe someone will create an awesome game for one of them. I'd want to try it until the 85 or 86 port was done if at all. As an unrelated comment, I don't know if it's possible but a shell for the 83 that has 86 emulation would be awesome!! All my friends have 83s. I'm the only one with an 86 and when they some games like Mario 86 and Sim Community 2000 they really liked them and now they want to play my calc. Like I said, I don't know if it's possible but the 83 and 86 seem a lot alike although I'm not sure how similar the assembly languages are. Maybe some can give it shot.

Oh yes, one more thing... this is a must know for every programmer...It is a motto i go by whenever i take up a programming job whether for Batch file programmin, TI basic, java, C or even simple HTML. it is called the KISS Principle
it stands for Keep It Simple Stupid....
Live it
Love it
Learn it
a windows knock off - heck even the real thing, doesnt make it possible to do this.... and it is one of the reasns i hate macs tooo.. but thats another story.. if ya want it, ask.
Matt

Mac is a Windows knock off? Windows copied Mac. Windows is alot better though.

-Ben

i want to hear it. I'm asking!! :-)

I think no matter how you make your shell(which looks awesome, by the way), you should definitly include a well programmed text editor. I hate to say it but the ones out now for the 86 are terrible.
That idea of windowed programs(that leave the status bar showing) is AWESOME.
I'm not an ASM programmer, but would it be possible to write a program that would replace the customer menu and replace it with the status bar of your shell? THat would be the best. I imagine that area of memory NONWRITABLE, though.

Im not sure if i was misunderstood or what, but what i meant by the custom menu (and it is practical, cuase ive seen something similar...)
is to, for each button, make another menu to pop up, since the custom menu is changeable. rahter than the traditional F1-F5 menu however, make it a windowed list, and as you use the arrow cursors to move down it, it scrolls as necessary.

as for editing the other menus in the calc (adding to them) it would be dependant upon what a good asm programer could get out of a Hex Dump.

Has anyone checked out Zig Zag yet?

I love your idea totally!! It would be cool if you could run everything from a shell. Even though I love your idea I think it is a little bit far fetch. I would love for someone to prove me wrong though. If anyone is trying to make this spectacular shell...............Good Luck!!

Another Windoze knock-off? Give me a break. Now I don't want to look like I'm flaming here, but it seems like the people writing shells are in serious need of an original thought.

Didn't we go down this road with Usgard before? Whatever happened to that cool GUI and the shared libraries... oh yeah, it was too bloated, so Andreas took it out.

Seriously, please stop trying to turn a calculator into a bloated Windoze box. That's another thing... seems like just about every TI'er I've ever seen on the lists worships Windoze. Ugh, use a REAL OS.

Ohhh baby!! ohh baby i think i will have a heart attack. If somebody makes that shell with all the features that pompous Philip thought of I am definetly clairvoyant about the ti-86.

I mean you have time, explorer and all this other stuff. I think what the asm experts such as Mathew shepcar,jimmy mardell and the others should do is start a chain program. Start this gui and wherever they are stuck or bored pass it on. Of course this is my opinion and definetely i dont know if they will even do it. Really glad to see this!!

there is only one problem with the programmer chain. yeah there are plenty of good programmers but most are too busy with their own programs to work on someone elses. also when you pass it on each different person will have some idea on how to better optomize it you know. so say bill gets it first, then jimmy, jimmy may totally change bills programming to what he thinks is better. then if i was bill i would get a little mad, and this would get out of hand and blah blah blah when the he double hockey sticks (hehe) is the ti-89 coming out? i want this stupid calculater. cause i got 150 to waste. well later all.

I am currently working with a well known asm programmer to create this shell.
Thanks for all you praises and flames. They will help tremendously in the creation of this shell.
Be watching for a news blurp on ticalc.org in the next couple of days which should include a screenshot and what we decided the shell should include.
So far these are my ideas:

1. Less of an association with Windows95. [I caught the tip :-)]
2. Icons (option can be turned on/off)
3. The ability to rename a program, delete it, view it (strings), hide it, move it to other folders, uncompress, compress, change icon and more
4. Possibly the ability to quit or shutdown the shell in the middle of a game or program and then when restarting the shell, the game begins right where you left off (Still working on this idea)
5. TI85, 82, and 83 emulation. Thinking about making this a component to the shell. (Then programmers could improve the emulation component)
Emulation should be better than ASE.
6. TI-Basic program descriptions and Icons
7. Auto-decompression and recompression so when running a compressed program, it automatically uncompresses and then recompresses when it ends. Can be turned on/off. Compression module will be a component.
8. No clock
9. Password function
10. Free Ram and program size

COMPONENTS:
1. Compression module
2. Emultion module
3. Icon editor and library
4. Text viewer amd editor
5. Simplified Explorer with folders and linking capabilities. Possibly the ability to link to a ti82 and 83 to get asm stuff.
6. In-shell Link component
7. Other programmers can make components.
Any other component ideas?

Ok, let me know what you think about this list. I probably left out a couple of things that I forgot.

I know someone mentioned this earlier...but why doesn't someone try to make it an all-encompassing TIOS...which lets you do almost everything (i.e. graphs, math, link, etc) without having to exit the shell....kinda like what we have with computers, you don't have to exit WIN98 everytime you want to do something else (bad example, I know)...there should at least be some concideraion into making a module for this after the intial release...I'm sure it couldn't take a lot of memory to make this module...I'm very happy someone is finally making this great shell and I can't wait to see a beta! =)

It's ok to quit the shell and load it again because it doesn't take >30sec to do it! (Anti-Windows? not. Just Anti-inpractical.)

How about a memory locking feature?

I don't have a TI-86, only a TI-83 ;) (me == poor student) However, I love your shell and am going to try and program something similar for the TI-83. I have a fair idea of how to do most things mentioned in the article.

So far:

(1) Compression (working on algorithms)

(2) TI-83 SOS/AShell compat. (dissecting source)

(3) Graphix similar to the ones above, with a few refinements of my own !!!

(4) Programs: Notepad (String Editor), Painter (Pic Editor), Explorer (File explorer), Linker (linking stuff)

(5) E.F.S == Extended File System. We TI-83 guys don't have the luxury of unlimited PIC vars etc, but I have worked out a way to store pix in prgm vars, strings, GDBs, etc. also.

(6) Compatiblity with the 83+'s Flash Archive AND Bryan Rittmeyers EII as soon as the drivers for the 83 become available (I hope...)

I'm not a wonderful asm programmer, but I'll give it a go....

I've got already a windows for my TI.
I have a version for the TI-83 only and it is the same as displayed on the top of this page with a start-menu etc.

I you want some tips e-mail me.

PP