I can understand taking the rom images off but wanting him to get rid of the domain name? They can't make him give up tinews.net. He payed for that site and if TI wanted it so that nobody could use it they should have bought it. Besides tinews was doing them a favor! This is just rediculus!

Hey, this is unrelated to the main topic of this news board but i need help! how do you graph piece wise functions on the ti89??? Any example would be fine. Like how would you graph X^2 while x>2?

apps (2)
y1=x^2|X>2
apps (4)

there are plenty of MUCH better places for that, but just put in something like x^2|x>2

You put in the graph and separate your domain rescrictions with a '|':
Y1= x^2|x<3

It shows you how to do it in your TI-graph booklet, just read it (look up subjects like domain rescriction or something)

I lost my book... but I see that we get to use the good old scheffer (i know i can't spell i never could...) stroke. WOOHOO j/k lol.

I just tried to load tinews.net, but I can't get there, is it already down or what? Anybody getting there?

tinews.net had some DNS changes a few days ago and if you happen to have a particularly slow DNS server, it won't load. The site shouldn't go down unless I get slashdotted or something. That would really suck. My old employer would hate me.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but what is slashdotting?

Slashdotting, a.k.a. the Slashdot Effect (click the URL) is a phenomenon related to bandwidth surges. When a site gets posted on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org) for being interesting or useful, it often experiences a leap in bandwidth, which, for a powerful server can mean popularity, or can gain exposition for an unknown site. The adverse effect is that ofhten these bandwidth surges are so great that sites are forced fo take some downtime, as many use up their allotted bandwidth. It tends to be remarkably effective, almost like an attack on the servers, but this way, they get some publicity before they go down... This has made a lot of people pretty angry, even people whose sites were posted in an innocent attempt of publicity. Thus, some people hate Slashdot, while others, like me, still love it.

As Gary said, it would make sense for TI to let these little sites be. These sites are not competing with TI, but rather supporting them. Hopefully all will work out for the best.

73 de Nathaniel

For those who aren't aware, TI is upset because TI-news has _already_ been given a cease-and-decist letter for the posting of ROMs, and after removing those once they have posted them again. TI doesn't see this "fan" site as a such positive force, and seeing as these ARE their trademarks, they have every right to do so.

And if TI really wants to be finicky, they can even demand that the phrase "Texas Instruments" be removed from the temporary shutdown page.

TI isn't doing this out of sprite, they're only trying to protect these ROMs that are, lest we forget, _commercial_ products. I know that I used my handy VTI for several months before getting my actual 89, and I wouldn't hold it above anyone to use an emulator rather than buy a calculator.

Ok, I see you know it all Scott. For your information, we were never given a cease-and-desist before this. I'm sure you'll insist we did, but we didn't. Maybe you should get your facts straight first. Anyway, it seems that TI doesnt actually have a trademark on TI News, although they do have a trademark on the word "Good". I may be infringing on their trademarks in this post. From here on out, noone say the G-word.

Last I checked, Sean ratted you out, and the ROM page went down, correct? At the very least, that's acknowledging that you were aware of the consequences. Regardless, putting the ROMs up there was stupid, and you knew it =)

is Goood taken?

A bit harsh, aren't we? Why are you always so negative? Geez, lighten up a little, Scott. You are a kick-ass programmer, but don't be so arrogant and combative. Stupid questions can be annoying (don't I know, I am a college computer lab monitor), but everyone screws up once in while (me, you, EVERYBODY).

Try and lighten up... Please!

There was nothing wrong with his post. He was stating the facts about what was happening. Yes, TI is being finicky, but Scott was not being rude or arrogant.

Scott wasn't being rude, he just had his facts misplaced.

I know, but his posts to A-89 are usually not the most tactful things in the world (that's why I called him negative).

I don't see why TI is getting mad at people for distributing rom files. Here are a few reasons why:

1. It's not the actual calculator.
2. You didn't buy the rom, so it isn't illegal to distribute.
3. It's letting people see how the calculator works and how good it is for people to see if the really want the calculator or not.
4. TI will give old rom's to anyone who asks.
5. With the 89/92+, people get them to see if their programs will work with all the AMS', and it could be prevented by not screwing up ASM programs with the new AMS'.

So it itn't a matter of their doing something bad, but TI wants them to stop them in their selling of calculators. Another thing, TI has a monopoly of the AMS' on the 73/83+/89/92+ calculators, and we cannot put our roms on them without a special program. And since TI won't release their 512bit encryption codes to put AMS' on the calc, or tell us how to take them off, they are abusing their monopoly.

it doesn't matter if you paid for the rom or not it is copyrighted material and distribution violates copryright laws thats what there mad about not the name. they want the name as an example of how they act if people don't knock this stuff off.

While you are correct that it was copyrighted material and the act was copyright infringement, the roms are no longer copyrighted, as they are now available from a place without their permission (at least I *think* that's how things fall into the public domain in the US).

While the purpose of tinews.net's infringement is debatable, I think it was more in the direction of ensuring program-AMS compatibility than in ROM pirating in and of itself. Until TI realizes that it was to further the usability of their calculators (which would increase the sales of their calcs by drawing more studuhnts (extrapolated from "induhviduals") to buy calcs for the sole purpose of the third-party programs available for them), rather than steal their property, they will have several very displeased (former) customers.

If TI continues this behavior, I'm switching from TIs to HPs! (OK, so I'll keep my 4 TIs, but will get as many HPs as I can, too (Oh great, then I'd need even more cargo pockets!))

e of pi and the unimatrix's 45.59985035114 copylefted cents

"You didn't buy the rom, so it isn't illegal to distribute."

Your opinion isn't relevant to the law; it is illegal. TI has the copyright so they control distribution i.e. copying.

"since TI won't release their 512bit encryption codes...they are abusing their monopoly."

This is ridiculous. I assume this is your qualified legal opinion on the matter?

Nothing stops you (except warranty void) to replace ROM chips and put operating system you wish.

This is really true, by the way, wern't you the guy who made tezxas?

Yes, now I have homepage to show what Tezxas can. Click link.

*2. You didn't buy the rom, so it isn't illegal to distribute. *
Actually, I'm afraid you, or someone else did. Part of the cost of the calculator is tied up in the cost of devoloping the software for it. i.e. You didn't really think that the $120 or so you spent on your TI-86 all went to the hardware did you? I really hate to play devil's advocate here, but take a look at Mathmatica, or any other advanced math computer program. Someone really smart had to write that, and with that smarts, and time spent programming it, comes money, and probably lots (that's the amount Post-Doc's like). So, whoever bought the calculator, and posted the ROM to it, was indeed just as guilty as the guy who posts a Windows98SE crack on their website. When you bought your computer, it most likely came preloaded with either MacOS, or Windows. Those were not free, but rather incorporated into the cost of the PC, and MS or Apple would be rather upset if someone found a way to compress their OS's to 800kb, and post it online. Simply because computer OS's are bloated and huge, does not make them any different (legally) from calculator OS's, and math functions. Both are proprietory, and not to be traded. But then again, I have ROM's to most TI calcs, I'm just saying it is proprietory, and that they have a legal reason for this. Not that their legal reason is moral, take a look at HP. Anyway, there's my 2¢ worth. Disclaimer: I do NOT support TI's actions, in fact, you can see my name (Ronald Bynoe) on the Tinews petition.

Linux isn't bloated, depending on how/what you install it with.

As for my PC, it's 100% custom built by myself.

-JrJinfinity
http://redrival.com/jrjinfinity

I used to have a 150 mhz comp that i built myself, it ended up having so many problems because all the parts i used are generic. HDD failure after about 2 months, having me pay another 200 bucks for another one. Everything had some defect, the memory was defected, the only thing that wasn't generic was the processor. The video card was made by a company called "weteck" and they have no refrences to themselves anywhere. The origonal comp cost me about 400 bucks for the parts, and because of defectiveness and unusability, i spent over 1200 total.

Sorry to hear this, I used high quality components so I spent a little over $800 total.

I have been buying components for my PC over the last 3 years starting with my zip drive, I pretty left the motherboard, processor, ram, and video card till last though.

WOW, arent you f-in special. it isnt that hard to put one togher.

>>You didn't buy the rom, so it isn't illegal to distribute.

Yes, it is illegal. They are copyrighted works. Period.

>>TI will give old rom's to anyone who asks.

Well yes but by not putting them up for download they prevent program archives from putting them up for compatibility. TI wants people to have the new versions. I personally would allow it but then again, I'm not TI.

>>With the 89/92+, people get them to see if their programs will work with all the AMS', and it could be prevented by not screwing up ASM programs with the new AMS'.

TI doesn't support assembly programming and doesn't like them especially. They want people to buy the $300 SDK if it ever comes out.

>>Another thing, TI has a monopoly of the AMS' on the 73/83+/89/92+ calculators, and we cannot put our roms on them without a special program. And since TI won't release their 512bit encryption codes to put AMS' on the calc, or tell us how to take them off, they are abusing their monopoly.

I wouldn't call this a monopoly. It's their hardware too and is a fully packaged product. It's not the same as computers, where there are alternative OS's that can be on them, and where you pay extra money for them. TI is not impeding any competitions. Monopolies are not by definition illegal.

My comment is on the encryption.

We (the community) should start cracking ti's code. It is called reverse-engeneering. It is legal. HP's calcs can run other operating systems namely Linux. TI's lack of a support for people just getting started in ASM, and/or programming, is a very bad thing. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Apple/Microsoft(much as I hate it)/Linux succeded/are succeding because they made people want to develop for their platform. HP does this. TI does not. (And I was thinking about getting either a 92+ or 48gx-well, enjoy your loss TI)

Yeah, I also think that we *should* write an alternate OS. Call me cynical though, but I don't think this will happen in the near future. Then again, if one was written I don't know if I'd switch. I got my TI-89 for math and don't know if I'd pay $150 for a tiny computer running linux. Plus, who knows what would happen if the OS had bugs in it and messed up the FLASH ROM.

Actually, it's not legal. Ever hear of the DMCA?

From first hand expierence, I can tell you that TI will give you old ROM's if you just ask nicely. Go to their feedback forum and tell them that you're a programmer tyring to ensure compatability with a program you're writing, and they'll send you any ROM you like. This is also a great way to solve the "I have a 2.05 calc, but can't patch it because HWpatch only runs on my comp and TIB-reciever won't work on v. 2.05" delimma. Finally, the notion that TI has a "monopoly" on their operating systems is absolute rubbish. The point is that it's TI's hardware to begin with and they have no obligation to make it compatable with any other programs whatsoever. Calling them a monopoly is like saying (or whining, in many cases) that Sony has a monopopy over their hardware, since Dreamcast games don't play on the Playstation. I hate to be contrary, but that's crazy-talk.

Also, I really don't think that cracking TI's code is such a good idea, and a little math will show us why...

Let's say Joe Hacker writes a program to break TI's encryption. Now, let's say his program tests one new security key code every second to see if that is the correct code. With TI's encryption at 512 bits, It'd take him about 4x10^146 years of nonstop code breaking. Even if a million super computers each tested the code 1 million million times a second, with no repeated tests, it would STILL take about 4 248 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years to break. Face it, we're stuck with TI's code.

Uh, have you ever heard of distributed.net?

um, i doubt it can top 1e12 tests per second.

Personally, I doubt cracking TI's "encryption" scheme would be a good thing with regard to
TI's attitude toward the Community, but:

If Joe Hacker was to try to crack TI's code, he wouldn't try random keys. That's how you'd
break a cryptologically-sound password or something. He'd look at the data being encrypted,
then the encrypted text, and then look at simple, fast *algorithms* to produce the latter from
the former. There's an informative post somewhere on the web about cracking CyberPatrol's
encryption scheme; I imagine this'd be similar.

Again, I am "ethically" neutral toward, and "strategically" against, any sort of "aggressive" maneuvering like this. But distributed-net, brute-force attacks aren't it.

the only way you are legally able to d/l calc roms is if you own that specific rom on that specific calculator. then YOU have rights to it. Ever hear of zsnes? it's a snes emu. Every Rom page says, "You may download these for a trial period of 24 hours. At that time, you MUST delete the rom, unless you own the actual game cartrige yourself" (or something to that effect) So, if you already own the rom, it doesn't matter. It's just as easy to upload it from your own calc using vti. TI won't say anything about that b/c in order to upload the rom, you must own the calculator with the rom on it!

Nathan

There is no such thing as a 24-hour rule. It is a myth. Being in possession of any copyrighted material which you don't have rights to is illegal.

I suspect that the pople who are "with" the copyright law are part of TI.

I agree. How do we know that 10 or 20 TI employees aren't assigned to visit major TI calculator websites and highlight their products and ensure that the public doesn't rebell again them? We know someone from TI visited TI-News if they received a legal notice. They probably browse ticalc.org every day, looking for anti-TI stuff.

I know for a fact that TI visits ticalc.org. And they most likely visit the sites that people specify under their names in comments. I know because I log all the hits to MY web page. I got a hit from gatekeep.ti.com (inaccessible from the web) to my home page with a referring URL from ticalc.org's news archive (as I recall it was the AMS 2.04 discussion page). I only got a hit on my home page I suppose because my site isn't TI-specific (only TI stuff is a link to ticalc.org) and they didn't figure me a 'threat to their profits'.

Just thought I'd put in my 3.14159265358979323846264338327950 cents worth.

programmer066

I know, let's start a TI employee witch hunt!

Perhaps include the domain name (not the full one, just the whatever.com part) with message posts

TI has marketing and research departments just like any other company. However, having 10 or 20 employees to keep up with the TI community is absurd. They may have a single marketing employee that does this from time to time, but this would not be a full time job. The TI community is not very big in comparison with the overall TI calculator market. I would guess no more than 1-3%. Granted, the community influences much more than that. While at a single high school only one person has a graph link and visits ticalc.org, downloads games and distributes them, the games may reach 25-50% of the people with that particular calculator. However, this does not mean that when a new calculator comes out with new features taht were influenced in part by the crazy TI community, all of those people will buy one.

The main TI programmer who wrote the z80 calc's ROM, Pat Milheron, was on the assembly-86 and assembly-83 lists for a while, and he posted on A86 quite a bit when the calc was new. I have no idea if he is still subscribed, but if so then he hasn't posted anything for probably at least a year. There could be any number of TI employees subscribed to the mailing lists. However, this seems rather doubtful.

Oh shit! You know who else is "with" the copyright law? The government! Damn, TI must be in bed with the government. It's all a big conspiracy! :P

1. It's not the actual calculator.

BUT it is possible to use the ROM to make an actual calculator, without giving any money to TI.

in that light ANYONE can get a rom off the ti site, why do you think i bought a ti-92 plus!

I can understand where TI is coming from when they don't want people to distribute ROM images. While we may think "Oh its only a calcuator", I have a similar analogy which might make it more understandable. Say I purchase a new computer, which has on it Windows 2000. I then create an image file of my hard drive (a ROM per say), and then distribute that file. While this isn't exactly the same, because you'd have a mess of problems trying to run one computers OS install on a different system and it would be a large file but the concept is similar...

> I don't see why TI is getting mad at people for
> distributing rom files. Here are a few reasons why:

Simple. The ROM images are copyrighted, the same as any other binary image can be copyrighted, such as the ROM image from Nintendo cartridge.

> 1. It's not the actual calculator.

Irrelevant. It is still copyrighted.

> 2. You didn't buy the rom, so it isn't illegal todistribute.

You did buy it, as part of the calculator. However, the license under which it is released determines the distribution terms, not whether or not it is sold.

> 3. It's letting people see how the calculator works and how
> good it is for people to see if the really want the calculator or not.

Irrelevant. The ROM is still copyrighted. Whether or not you think this may help TI, it is still their decision, not yours.

> 4. TI will give old rom's to anyone who asks.

Whether or not this is true, this does not change the fact that the ROM is copyrighted. Just because TI sent me a free calculator for being a part of their SDK beta program, does that mean I am free to distribute the ROM from the free calculator? No, of course not. The license still applies.

> 5. With the 89/92+, people get them to see if their programs
> will work with all the AMS', and it could be prevented by not
> screwing up ASM programs with the new AMS'.

Again, while this may be beneficial to TI, it is still their decision. They hold the copyright and thus choose the license under which it may be distributed.

> So it itn't a matter of their doing something bad, but TI wants
> them to stop them in their selling of calculators. Another thing,

This comment makes no sense whatsoever.

> TI has a monopoly of the AMS' on the 73/83+/89/92+ calculators,
> and we cannot put our roms on them without a special program.
> And since TI won't release their 512bit encryption codes to put
> AMS' on the calc, or tell us how to take them off, they are
> abusing their monopoly.

This is not a monopoly. I am not a lawyer, but I believe this comes under the classification of protecting propriety technology. A restriction on monopolies only applies to an open platform, such as a PC. For example, ever since the original NES, Nintendo has used hardware lock-out mechanisms on their game systems to prevent unlicensed developers from manufacturing and selling carts. All games must be approved, licensed, manufactured and distributed by Nintendo. Yes, Nintendo has an exclusive monopoly. And they can do this because it is their system. In fact, they have sued other companies such as Color Dreams who sold carts without Nintendo's blessing. The precedences set by these cases should give you a good idea of how the legal system works in cases such as these.

I think you're from TI. That's why you're on their side.

Uh, let's think about this for a second. David Phillips is part of ACZ. ACZ makes Virtual TI. Do you really think someone who helped make Virtual TI, which is the reason a good portion of the TI community even _downloads_ ROMs, would work for TI?

Perhaps ACZ is the perfect front for TI? :) Just kidding...