I own a ti-83+ and i think they utterly suck. The average 83+ user is an idiot. And ANYONE who demands a port, should get off their ass and code it themself.

I agree with Sam on this one. I got a TI-83 Plus, and now I regret it, but I did do some research on the web before I bought it, but (of course) it wasn't 'till after I got it that I started realizing: hey! The TI-86 is better!

But ya live and a ya learn. I do some BASIC programming, but I know that is nothing compared to ASM, for I have tried ASM (I can't get it to work, but I'm trying to get the stuff in the ASMGuru manual converted to ION).

But I can say this: I read my manual. I checked out ticalc.org and Dimesion-TI. I was confused to why TI-83 programs did not work, but instead of complianing, I did my research and checked the manual (!) and the FAQ.

And that's all I have to say about that.

It's nice and comforting to know that there's at least ONE knowledgable person out of what seems to be an endless stream of incompetency.
One thing I want to know, though - can you trade the 83+ in for an 86? Can't you get a warranty claim or something :)

--BlueCalx

Oh, do I wish.......heck, maybe they do, but I doubt it.

<shamlessplug>
Visit the ASimWeb! Click on the web page link to go there!
</shamelessplug>

ASimPerson

> But I can say this: I read my manual.

...? Manual?? What is this... manual? I remember a red book in the package with my 86, but I just threw it out...

Hmm.. lol :)

TRUE: I used to have a manual for my 83 --- But then a dog crapped on it.

I just wan't to say this fact: assembly programming (for the shells if you don't know) games are tough to do even for very good programmers. In the time it takes for someone to read a long flame they could already be making a game. Just had to say that.

-KnightHero

This whole mess is a great shame. These are calculators! They are not life or death. The programers such as Sam and Ahmed (thanks for all the AWSOME programs guys) are taking time out of their busy schedule to do something that they aren't even being payed for. To say or even hint that they are obligated to write programs is stupid. These guys do it because they like to do it, no other reason. Give them a break and show some respect where it is due!!!!

why did you (people who have calculators, I having an 89) spend the 100$'s+ for a calculator? for freggin games? Use it for MATH, what it was made for, stop your bitching about games and do math with it, if you want games, go buy a gameboy for 50 or so, stop pestering the programmers about mindless things. Its funny how people go bezerk when they can't get games for their calculator that they probably told their parents that they needed it for some algebra 1 class or some crap like that. Use it for math, dont worry so dang much about games

Smurf

I just wanted to say that ever since ION came out, I have been getting hundreds of mails from every newbie on the planet with a TI-83+, just because Joe Wingbermuhle thanked me for something in his text file... Okay, I really didn't get this at first, but eventually I got around to re-reading the ION.txt file... it seems that these brain dead newbies took the comment about information the wrong way and somehow found my E-mail address (despite their IQ). I'm not saying that people should not be thanked for their help, Just letting off some steam...

I could write pages on my feelings about the issue, and so somethings in my "short summary" to Nick were obviously a little vague. Obviously, I cannot respond directly to every single comment. Most of these things have already been said by others, but I should probably repeat them. I apologize for any quotations that may use vulgarity, but they are required both for emphasis and truth to how they were told. I hope this is a little less confusing then the last.

1)To 83+ users and others: The motive for my boycott attempt was NOT merely because I received a good deal hatemail. The point is NOT "83+ users are a bunch of immature assholes." Beleive it or not, author disrespect plagues every TI calculator today. If I had to rate them from least to most disrespecting, I would say 85,82,83,86,83+ (popularity is evident). It has been said that disrespect "comes with the territory." I just do not think it does or should. At this point in time, the 83+ community (in general) exemplifies and magnifies this flaw. By displaying that such actions do not have to be tolerated, I wished to set a precedent of respect. Ironically, I am considered "one of the most respected individuals of the TI community." If such occurences can happen to me, it certainly can happen to anyone. I reiterate that the answer to the problem is not to start a flame war with 83+ users.

2)About the Ztetris release: First, I did not make or test the port, because at that time there wasn't an 83+ emulator. I had utmost faith that Ahmed made the ports to the best of his ability. Saying that the flames were our own fault is rediculous. If I release anything for the 83+, it will be because of an emulator, and an emulator can only let you test so far. It simply doesn't offer the same level of depth as rigorous on-calc testing. Do some games not work with others? If you start game X, start game Y, exit the shell, enter a math equation, restart the shell, power-down, then try and send a game to the calculator, will it crash? I certainly don't know. I can only test the game under ideal circumstances.

3)Why I ended the boycott: Some people wish that it be started. I thought the "no games for flames" slogan was rather funny, though. This might be a more detailed explanation: TCPA wanted to make ports. I said no. They posted a premature news article. Ticalc.org followed TCPA's lead. Essentially, the boycott was taken out of my hands. Since the information that TCPA posted was rather scant, the situation confused rather than inspired. Instead of being on the offensive, I was forced to defend what I intended to do. The element of surprise was gone, and the "huge release plan" had been reduced to a single insignficant Solitaire game. Now, the plan can be viewed in hindsight at the least as being very original, with some agreeing and some disagreeing. I think that had everything gone to plan, things would have turned out better. Clearly, an action would have been more emphatic than a mere threat.

3)To those who wish to continue the boycott on their own: Don't do it. Ahmed and I have a unique position with the 82/83 with the magnitude of our releases, where a protest would be seen as a tremendous blow. If one person only denies one game, it seems rather insigficant.

4)Attitude is more important than content. I don't mind newbie mail or port requests, but when they become flaming demands rather than courteous calls, things are out of hand. I suggest that if you are going to request a port, say why you want the port. The reason is not that you want more games, but that you want a quality game like program X. Say something like "I saw the animated screen shot of X on ticalc.org, the game and gameplay look awesome. I would love to see it on my 83+. Is there any chance of a port being made?". It sounds like borderline "ass-kissing", but I assure you that kindness initiates kindness. Similarly, effort initiates effort. Your 2-minute request might mean hours of work for a programmer. Make the programmer believe that you truly want THAT game, not just any game. If you write a newbie message say something like this: "Hello, I downloaded your game and read the text file, but I still am having trouble getting X to work properly. Do you have any suggestions." Then list what you did and what is wrong. Effort initiates effort. Prove that you have tried the game and you have read the documentation. If you wish to critisize, make it constructive.

5)Zelda - Slip of the tongue. It is in no way related to this topic. I merely inserted that interjection because I know 95% of people would prefer me to work on that rather than waste my time with an 83+.

I'm going to post ION versions of Galaxian, Pac-Man, Picross, and FrAWgGuts later tonight. They should work perfectly. As for Zelda, look for more news regarding it soon. There will always be fairly frequent messages about it on void.calc.org In case you haven't heard, Harper Maddox rejoined the project. We are reprogramming it almost entirely from scratch with new great-looking 12x12 sprites and collision detection (the largest complaints of the original demo).

Just a couple of things:
Hey! <shame>I happen to like my 82</shame> and what you and Ahmed have done for it. I know it has the second to last amount of hate mail, but the fact enough people noticed and sent you hate mail to outdo the 85 is surprising.
I have to agree that the no games for flames slogan was kinda cool.
Everyone else reading this:
He is right. Effort does bring effort. If someone in my geometry class is having trouble with a math problem and they have truly been working on it (I can tell - pounding fists and tons of eraser marks, etc) and asks me for help (the teacher doesn't know what she's teaching), I'll be more inclined to help him/her than someone who hasn't even looked at the problem for more than two seconds and says "Drew... help!"

they should be he/she

He said from least to most disrespecting, so the TI-82 had the second to _least_ amount of flames.

that's what I meant

It is worth noting that the # of complaints jump from the 82/85 to the 83/86 is fairly large. 82 and 85 owners are about equal. The difference is simple: I have done more programming for the 82 and there are more "younger" 82 users. The TI-82 is my favorite calculator to develop for, followed by the 85, and third would be the 83 because I can compile an 82 source for the 83 or vice versa by changing an include file.

Hello, first and foremost I would like to thank Ahmed and Sam for giving the 83+ community a second chance. Second, I would like to appologize to sam, appareantly according to his post, I am among the SCUM of the earth being both a 83+ and 86 owner/user. Granted in the past I have asked for ports of decent games, among those were the games of FFX4 to Ion, and also Joltima to the 86. (Thanks Bill for Joltima!!) Being a low level programmer (meaning I only know basic and ASM confuses the Hell out of me, *at this time*) I know that some times you do get hate mail, flame mail, mail bombs, viri, ect. ect... and all i did was create a basic program that had one little thing wrong in the documentation. Not the game itself, but the walkthorugh. Finally I had to pull the plug on the game, dropped my web site, wrote a NASTY little message there and the whole world went without my game.

I thought, that will teach them. hehehe.. but it produced more flames, and more hate mail, and more viri, ect. ect.

And it was all for a BASIC game. (Yes I am the Raving Lunatic that always says that Basic can do all that ASM can do except contrast and turn off the calc.) Not only that, but it had on calc source!! Sheesh, but many people are not stupid, just ignorant. Some people buy $15,000 computers only to wind up playing solitare (read the txt file for Solytare on 82/83/86) so why not have calc users spend $50+ just to be able to play a text version of battleship. The main reason is because of advancement. We (the basic programmer community) are givin way more crap than the likes of Sam and Ahmed, the main reason is that either we can't or just haven't learned ASM and so our games are compared to those in ASM for graphics, speed, gameplay ect... look at the POTM awards even, gosh, isn't that neat that ASM has there own catagory for all calcs, but Basic is just tossed in there. Now, with the disrespect that I get for being a Basic programmer, should I quit? Should I just stop on the production of an 86 game just because all 89 and 92 users have SF2? Maybe I should, after all no one wants to play a basic game, and no one really wants to try to _teach_ ASM. I have over 20 FAQ's on ASM, and all they do is say, here is the program, this is what it does. I don't really learn from that, if someone would teach ASM like they did TI-Basic to me, it would be easier... the same way I learned C++

Print = Disp = write.line{ }

instead of the way the FAQ's are already written, you need to know most of ASM to even start. Some people say learn by source code, well you can't really learn by source code alone. Some people say, well I commented it. Yeah but like this

.db list.var \this has to be there to work.

okay. so that has to be there work. any other places that it may A) mess it all up
B) be neccessary to work? like in Qbasic, you have to have

DIM A$() = 9

to be able to have a 9 character array.
what if the source just said

DIM A$()=9 :"This has to be there to work"


so, if you later saw

input A$(3)

and wanted to add another var, but were just learning

input B$(3)

you would be awfully pissed, I know I was. In my source code (included TXT files) I had it commented like so

DIM A$()=9 :"This MUST be there to have an array variable, so if you use DIM B$()=9"
"you can put a later statement for B$() same for C$(), D$(), ect."

Now, back on my ranting and raving, if someone were to help TEACH me to learn ASM, i could help port the games, I have an 83+ which I have crashed before, and will crash again to beta test stuff. Granted that releasing a port w/out calc tests wasn't a good thing to do, but we shouldn't fault Ahmed for it, after all in his busy life right now he has college and all sorts of SH|T to think about. I'm in college right now (at the age of 17 baaabieee!!!) and i can assure you that unless you get a free ride, you ain't gonna get a new Playstation, 64, or a calc. so buck up everyone.

Oh, and I will not check this message board again, that's why I put my email adress up top. so send all flames and mail bombs. to

Bill_Gates@microsoftsuppport.com

but any CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, can be sent to
ramz @ .com

Ladies and gentlemen, the person who wrote this is a genious!

I've said it all many a time.

The only difference being, my postzs were never so long as to catch a perosons eye as they were skimming down the discussion page.

Amen to the someone who went and finally did it.

This is, by FAR, the best Z80 ASM "FAQ" in existence. I hesitate to call it a FAQ because it's not a FAQ. It's a help file.

Give it a shot.

(The link is listed as "Web Page" or "URL" below my name)

David I

BTW, BASIC is a high level language. ASM is a low level language.

I really hate to nitpick, but:
DIM A$()=9 should be DIM A$(9)

For those of you who don't know BASIC (not TI's version), A$ is a string variable. Adding the (9) part makes it a 10x1 matrix (Qbasic starts at 0), equivalent to making a string matrix on the calc (?).

Ti Basic has no equivalant to a string array, it makes it extremely hard for a Basic game to have multiple strings (such as ten characters in an RPG, so far I've been using seperate variables for that. I wouldn't mind if any ASM programmes would write a simple program that would store a total of 50 string variables to be *archived and unarchived* that would be nice.. = 0

Ok. That's what I was wondering.

the sub( command works pretty nice to break up strings and in a for( loop you could test to see is that sub( of a string had a certain char and not display it if it did.
ex.

"**********"->NAM ;store 10 * to string NAM(e)
For(A,1,10 ;set A counter to 10 and repete following (until end 10x)
If "*"!=sub(NAM,A,1 ;if the char is 'not empty' or not default
Disp sub(NAM,A,1) ;then show it
End ;repete until done for 10 chars

alternitvy you could have used output to display the characters 'normaly' (hoizontally)

also you could use that one string as 'multiple strings' with the sub commandlike this

"ABCDEFG"->NAM
sub(NAM,4,2

this program returns "DE" becasue it is the subset of stirng NAM starting at 4 and continuing for 2 [letters]

maybey that can help

I used that method before, but I found that for the system of methods for teh program I'm using it makes it difficult, for one the string contents are any where from 1 to 5 characters in length depending on the gamer, and it just takes less memory to use an

if name == name1
then
REST1
end

than it does for

if sub(names,1,5) == NAME
then
rest1
end

(yes memory is very important when you're getting to the 90 K total of use in program memory!!)

but, yeah... gotta go

Do not jump into the fall of eternal abyss, instead, just skim the surface.

nifty!! I got bored and decided to look here and see if it was deleted yet or something. But it wasn't... and I was called a Genius... boy, whoever called me a Genius sure deosn't know me to well...

= )

Through hope there is Darkness.. Through Darkness there is life, through life there is death.. questions?

It should be obvious why BASIC programmers like you receive a lot of flame mail. It's your claims about the quality of BASIC that cause you to be flamed.

For example, in this very message you say "I am the Raving Lunatic that always says that Basic can do all that ASM can do except contrast and turn off the calc." That's exactly why you are flamed. People read all the BASIC programmer's nonsence like that, and then see that the BASIC programs don't perform as well as assembly does. It's very interesting that you still mention having requested port of assembly programs .. one has wonder why you didn't just write it in BASIC yourself. if BASIC is really jsut as good?

You complaint that "our games are compared to those in ASM for graphics, speed, gameplay ect" seems to suggest that you don't think BASIC games should be held to the same standard as assembly ones. That is reasonable, but it goes against your other claims that BASIC really is equal to ASM.

Yes, I know you didn't technically say they were equal, but saying that "Basic can do all that ASM can do except contrast and turn off the calc" is a very misleading statement. If instead you had said that "Basic can do all that ASM can do except contrast and turn off the calc, but hundreds of times slower" then people would consider you honest and thus be less likely to flame you.

Also, your whining about us refusing to teach you assembler may infuriate the knowledgeable people, for obvious reasons. If you think that I (or any other person who knows assembler) needs to teach you everything, think about this: When I first started learning assembly, I obviously didn't already know it! Since I couldn't spoon-feed the skills to myself (since I didn't have them at the time) and still learned it anyway, *you* should be able to do the same.

If you think the many thorough assembly programming help files available are worthless, that's just because you don't seem to realize what assembly is like. A lot of BASIC programmers seem to think that learning assembly is like learning the alphabet; that there's a simple piece of information that, once you are familiar with it, you are immediately a skilled assembly programmer. That's not true. I don't know what files you're referring to, but even the tutorial I produced (which I don't consider the best of them) is far better than what you're descrbining. It begins with an explanation of how assembly works, explaining how the memory is organized and what the register are for and how assembly program control works. While I do have a sample program after that, it doesn't merely tell you what the program does, but it has several lines of comment for *each line* of code. That's a thorough explanation of what each one does and how it relates to the program.

However, those two things (basic explanations and sample programs) are only two of the three things you'll need to learn assembly. The third component is yourself! For example, even if you both have a large vocabulary and good understand of the grammar of language, that alone is not enough to be a great writer. Even reading other people's literature won't be all you need. The reason is that you must figure out how to *combine* the building blocks to express you're ideas. This is the same for assembly programming, and you can only learn it by thinking about the subject yourself.

Absolutely no tutorials are needed to learn assembly. The only files you really need to learn to program assembly are the instruction set chart (like Z80ISS.TXT for the Z80), and the files explaining the memory layout (TI-RAM.TXT on the 85), the function calls (ZSFNLIB.TXT for ZShell) and the hardware ports (TI-PORTS.TXT on the 85). Anything else is a luxury that is not necessary. One can learn to program the TI-85 simply from those four files (or equivalent for the other calculators, all available on ticalc.org). The fact that you whine about not having more shows that you simply don't try hard enough.
The earliest TI programmers learned without any tutorials, so you should be able to do so also, if you take it seriously. However, if you do want some help, there are many people who will gladly pass on their knowledge if you only ask for help respectfully.

If you would like to get more help and less flames, you could try to do the following things (I will gladly provide ASM help to anyone who does):

1) Stop stating (or implying) that BASIC programs matches assembly in performance.

2) If you want someone to help you learn assembler, it might help if you make it look like you're making at least a small effort to do some learning on your own.

3) Don't think that anyone should spoon-feed you with detailed information on everything.

4) Try to do make some effort to *think* about things yourself, instead of asking for help on anything that isn't immediately obvious within 1/2 second.

5) Try reading the tutorials more carefully, and maybe even *think* a little bit about the sample programs instead of expecting a detailed explanation of everything. If you have specific questions, people will answer, but simply "I don't understand ASM" is way too broad.

6) If you're in college, you could try taking a class in assembly programming! After all, the college actually has an obligation to teach you. There probably isn't a Z80 class, but the problems of BASIC progammers who want to learn assembly is usually not a processor-specific problem, but failure to understand the concepts of how assembly programs are put together.

7) Don't expect assembly to be as easy as BASIC. I won't say that assembly is hard, but expecting us to make it as easy as BASIC for you is asking too much.

8) Remember that the people who learned assembly before you had less help available than you did. For example, I didn't read any tutorials or ask anyone for help yet I managed to learn assembly from the documentation I listed above. If they can learn assembly without spoon-feeding, why can't you?

9) Above all, keep in mind that assembly programming is a skill, not a set of facts. You have to work on it yourself to actually gain the ability.

he does have a point however...

i can understand why he was called a genious. he just put into words what everybody else was thinking...the lack of necessary comments on a "LEARN ASM NOW!!!" tutorial. when it says:
or a ;do it cuz it works

that doesn't help me at all. the only good 'tutorial' i have read was one that didn't assume i already knew asm and had perfectly good comments. thats the ASMGURU help file for the ti-83. it starts from the very beginning and i think the author, Matt, should be given an award or something.

thats all he meant.

jake

I for one have a learning disability! I'm dislexic and have a really really really really hard time putting ideas down on paper, that's why I feel that just learning basic and C++ was tremendous accomplishement.

But, I have heard of teh ASMGURU, could any one tell me where it might be.

Okay, there is no way so simple as "Print = Disp = write.line { }" to explain assembly. When you write assembly, each instruction you write is the next step the processor executes. In all the other languages, C, BASIC, Pascal, FORTRAN, et cetera, there might be tens or hundreds of instructions your processor carries out for each line you write, but in ASM you are writing directions directly to the processor. So the simple explanations you are in search of, well, quite simply, do not exist.
To program ASM you need to understand the native instruction set of the processor you are writing for (z80 in this case), and you need to have the memory map and a list of rom routines for the machine you are writing for. In other words, you need to know the machine in and out. It's the next closest thing to machine language.
It's just a whole new world from BASIC. I think that the resources out there are adequate (they must be, judging from the number of other assembly programmers) but they just don't fit with your paradigms of a language and how it should work.

If you ask me as a comp eng guy, putting assembly with full curcuit/comp eng knowledge, it is soo much easier to visualize (ie, gates, registries, stacks....logic :) )

Heck, i can visualize the processor doing it before I learn the z80 code, very interesting :)

-Vejita

DITTOS ON THE 17, same here, heck yea.!!! :)