Survey posted 1999-09-17 05:50 by Andy.

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Yeah right! You must be joking! You'd have to be on crack to pay for it! I don't care if it is 3D and in full color! I don't care what it is, I am not paying for it. If you want to program and get payed for it get a real job!

Preach it!! I, for one would start cracking programs or buying them and distributing them free! I don not agree with charging for calculator programs. I have already seen a few for the 82 and 83, and that is just sick. I think that all the major calc. sites (TI-calc, Dim-Ti, etc.) Should refuse to post any shareware programs on their sites, or condone the use of shareware. Well, that's just IMO.

Ron!

It's not just little progs. What if somone mad an app that did the 3d graphing 3x faster or some such thing and asked $5 for it. I think I might be worth it if I needed to do a lot of 3d graphing.

Back in the 85 days there were a few people who said "pay me $1 for registration". That was generally a disguised "help me get a new graph link" fund or a "help me get a new calc, my old one is busted" fund. And I for example sent in a $1 to one of them. But when people start wanting for example $10 or more for a calculator program... I certainly would not pay it, no matter what the quality. There's only a certain amount of stuff that needs to be done on a calculator anyway... for example, if you want a high quality personal organizer, you can get a pretty good one for around $10 that has a qwerty keyboard. Okay, that's all I have to say about this.

I think I should point out to everyone at this point that you are all basically at the mercy of programmers when it comes to calculator software. If a programmer writes a program and then wants to charge for it, unless a way is found of getting the program without paying the programmer, you're going to have to pay them if you want the program. And if all programmers start demanding payment for their major programs, you'll have no free alternative programs to turn to. I know that there are a number of good calculator programmers who are very keen on the idea of calculator shareware...

I don't see what the major problem with calculator shareware is. I heard someone say that because calculator software is very small in size compared to computer programs, it isn't worth anything. But what about the Gameboy? $20-$30 for a little cartridge with 128K or less of code and data on it - and yet people pay that without thinking twice. "Ah, but that's a Gameboy, with specialist games hardware that makes playing games much better..." - so Tetris for the TI-89 in gray-scale with fast graphics is worth nothing, but the same game for the Gameboy (with a bit of sound) is worth $20 or so? (forgive me if my prices are out...) Doesn't make much sense to me.

Those of you who think that shareware will have a bad effect on the TI community are definitely right - look at the effect it's having before it's even been released! It's inevitable that people will try to start Warez sites - that's life. But, as usual, "money makes the world go round" (ugh, cliché). Calculators are going to go in the shareware direction. And as the methods that make it possible are hacked apart, new methods that are more difficult to hack will be created. Calculator shareware will go on, just like it has on the HP, just like it has on the Mac, and the PC, and the Amiga, and any other computer/calculator ever made that can be programmed (virtually). Sorry folks, but you may be forced to pay for calculator programs in the future! Of course, if you boycott them in protest, that's up to you... :)

If a program is shareware or I have to pay for it, I just won't use the program. There are plenty of good, free programs out there already. Anyone who makes commercial or shareware programs will have to deal with a rather harsh competition out there already.

--BlueCalx

Ditto. There are a lot of people who make programs for fun, not for cash. Anyway, there is something fundementally wrong with charging money for crappy games. No offence to the programmers, but were not talking about high-resolution 3D graphics.

I think it would really be a discrace if programmers started charging for their programs. First of all, most people who own calculators are high school students who had to pay a bloody fortune to get the calculator in the first place, and they don't always have the money for calculator games. If programmers started charging, we would see less people playing calculator games, and that would accomplish nothing.

It would be these same programmers charging for their programs who got them free when they first got their calculators. If programmers start charging, then we will have less programmers because it would be costly just to play in the first place. Plus, would their be any legal issues for Texas Instruments, being that people would be making a profit creating games for their product?

Your comments are ridiculous.
A Ti-89 is not the same system as a Gameboy. Do you actually think that someone could program a game as complex as The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening on a calculator? give me a break. Sure Jimmy Mardell, made a great tetris game, but he never charged people for it. So why should I pay some snot nosed brat $5 for Boneyard. I don't care that he spent six weeks developing it, or that he failed Algebra II because he spent all of his time on it. Obviously he already had a graphlink if he sent it out on the internet, so we wont fall for that scam. The fact is that nobody (corporations and kids) makes a game good enough for sale. The only feasible market is in the applications design, and i think Ti and a few other companies have this one covered. But even with that, any program is without a registration-key is up for grabs. Ti-Warez would be so rampant that it would not even be worth it to spend time developing a product. Think to yourself, rom images. I know i have about 5 or 6 for calculators i dont have, and it takes me about a minute to get one. The fact is there is little incentive to produce for the Ti programming market, if you are only interested in money. So, if you want to make some money go out and work for some giant sloppy computer company and debug its software. Im sure Microsoft could always use another pathetic loser slaving over windows 2000. But for me, im going to stick to making games for the fun of it. And I'll earn my reputation... out of respect.

It is possible to write very complex programs for a calculator, and not just games. I have to point out here that many TI calculators ARE very similar to Gameboys - they even use the same processor! Sure the Gameboy had additional hardware, but then the superior processors in the TI-89/92+ are actually faster than the Gameboy's! And of course it's not just games that are possible - word processors, spreadsheets, databases, etc. are all possible on a calculator. Particularly for applications, if the program is complicated enough, if the means are available programmers are likely to charge for them.

I myself have never yet charged for a program, particularly calculator ones, and I have no immediate intention to. I wrote a spreadsheet program that took months to make and happily gave it away for free. But many programmers will start to charge for programs that they make, as long as they're of good enough quality. I don't see it as bad for the TI community. After all, as long as free demo versions of these programs are available, if you don't like the programs you don't have to buy them.

BTW, I think there's a lot of programmers out there who would love to be earning a fortune working for Microsoft...

If you are wondering why people would pay $20 for a gameboy tetris, that is because we get a sense of security in it. We know that the game we bought is from a trusted source and not some people we don't even know about. If there are any problems with the game, we can turn to Nintendo, but who will we turn to for the calculator games? Also, I would say that there are more people owning a gameboy than a graphic calculator.

Just something to consider:

What if the $10 program you are talking about made the difference between an "A" and a "C" in a class you were struggling in? What if the $10 program made the difference on the SAT/ACT test that allowed you to get a $1000/year scholarship to your preferred university, instead of no scholarship to the local community college? How about if you were going to make your living using the program? What if you knew that the $10, professional quality program was produced by a handicaped person whose entire income was generated as a result of his/her ability to produce and market quality, inexpensive calculator software?

Keep in mind that most real innovations are made in the name of a commercial endevor.

With an open mind,
Tip DS

Personnaly, I think your (Tip DS's) opinion doesn't make sense : you said a $10 program could make the difference between having a scolarship and don't having one. You were talking of this handicaped person making calculator programs : just think of all the poor people who can't afford buying a big calculator (and the programs on it), and who won't have a scolarship for this reason, whereas you, with your $100 Ti, even if you're not so good, you'll have one : it's not fair ! If you don't think you can have a scolarship without using yout calc, then I feel you're not worth it. In France, the problem has been mostly solved : except at the baccalaureat (the exam where you graduate from high-school), you almost never have the right to have a calc. Most teachers perfectly know what you can do with it, and they want you to use only your brain during the tests.
About the calculator freeware, I liked David Hart's answer : as the calculators are becoming more and more complex, it's becoming just like computers : who would imagine a software company giving big programs for nothing ? The progammers have to make money if they want to continue to live, it's unavoydable.
Personnaly, I answered "No" at the question, because I think calculators are not complex enough today : someone can make all by himself what is considered as a "big" calculator program, without being a professional. We are still living in a kind of "freeware age", but this is not going to last forever : when calculators will be fast enough to run 3D games and will have really big memories, then only professional teams will be good enough to make the software, and everybody will have to pay for it.

"Personnaly, I think your (Tip DS's) opinion doesn't make sense" -- FL

This type of personal attack is typical of "your type" of people. But I have lowered myself...

"just think of all the poor people who can't afford buying a big calculator" -- FL

Well, Mr. Smartypants... I think anyone worthy of college would understand that the $110 investment (in a calculator plus the program) would more than pay for itself if it meant a scholarship. If they can't afford the calc, then they SURE can't afford college. (Please remember, we are not a communist state here.)

"you don't think you can have a scolarship without using yout calc, then I feel you're not worth it." -- FL

Since I got my scholarship without the calc (I took all my tests the old-fashoned way) I will take that as a compliment?

"In France, the problem has been mostly solved..." -- FL

Well, geez! Aren't you French just soooooo ahead of the game. Too bad us stupid Americans can't get it together, huh?

"...someone can make all by himself what is considered as a "big" calculator program..." -- FL

I guess that's why there's so much software for civil, chemical, mechanical, aerospace,..., engineers, huh? I have yet to see a single "one stop solution" program for any branch of engineering. Even the professionally designed EE*Pro falls short.

"...when calculators will be fast enough to run 3D games and..." -- FL

I'll try to take another look at the world from your perspective. At this point, though, the utility of a calculator (or any other business tool, for that matter) does not hinge on it's ability to remove me from reality with true to life GAMES.

Different strokes for different folks. Let's hope none of us has a stroke.

Later,
Tip DS

dude....seriously...do you have nothing better to do with your time then attack this guy? lets stick to calculator subjects, thank you

oh yeah...thanks for justifying that stupid american crack of yours...makes the rest of us look great...ok you know what, i was going to end it there but i cant resist. why do you believe that only rich kids should go to college? why do you think everybody else should be excluded from higher education? what could you possibly gain from verbally bashing an entire country? what makes you think engineers would be using a ti calculator? and why do you think its a bad thing for calcs to be able to run 3D graphics...after all, last time i checked, our world is 3D...maybe i better go look outside again...i dont know if youve actually seen a 3D graph on a ti89...but it sucks... oh i just read another of your comments...so whats your age, grade (if in school), class rank, gpa, and all that stuff

Thanks...

"why do you believe that only rich kids should go to college?" -- Jason Curtis

Maybe I wasn't clear on my meaning, maybe you misread my comment. I don't think only rich kids should go to college.

"what could you possibly gain from verbally bashing an entire country?" -- Jason Curtis

That was not my intent either. What I read from his original comment was, essentially, "You guys are stupid. We French have this whole game figured out, and here's our game plan. You stupid Americans need to get a grip." My comment was intended to point out how insensitive HIS comment was. Maybe I misread his comment, maybe not. BTW, I didn't do anything verbally, I was written. <G>

"what makes you think engineers would be using a ti calculator?" -- Jason Curtis

Why shouldn't they? Well, assuming quality software was available for the TI, as it is for the HP. Heck, I use one.

"and why do you think its a bad thing for calcs to be able to run 3D graphics..." -- Jason Curtis

Well, in the context of a work environment, it is a bad thing. If you want 3D games on your calc, fine. My suggestion would be to get a game machine, rather than a calculator for that purpose. I think that calculators were originally intended as a productivity tool, and that's how I view mine.

"i dont know if youve actually seen a 3D graph on a ti89...but it sucks" -- Jason Curtis

Compared to what? Doing it by hand? Doing it on the HP? I don't think it's all that bad for a hand-heald tool. For practical applications, it is sufficient. Yes, it could be improved, but I don't think it's that bad... and it beats the snot out of doing it by hand!

We're all entitled to our opinions. If you are inclined to hate me, that is your option. I, personally, don't hate anyone, including FL. I took some offense to his original post, and thought it warranted a reply. If I've offended you in the process, I would say that it was not my intent. I hope you (both) understand. If you don't, esta la vida.

Good day,
Tip DS

<mediation>hold it, settle down everybody. just leave tip ds alone, we all know it's been 27 days now...</m>

<on-subject rant>i agree with the comment that if a single programmer can produce a quality program fully utilizing the calculator's features, he should freely distribute it, or fail otherwise. now, it will be a very long time until the calculators are too complex for individual programming (that day hopefully will never come), but if it does, it will still be even longer until a company sees potential in calculator gaming and longer still until it gains a foothold. we are currently moving closer to that end, with the elimination of the 85/92 and the introduction of built-in asm support and flash software/sdk. while i personally never intend to pay for what can be cracked, this is an issue that must be argued and fought, or else we may soon see the day when calculators have game cartridges and have games advertised on TV...</rant>

No offense, but I don't think a calculator can seriously make a difference between a scholarship and not, unless you have the answers to the ACT/SAT in a program. Anyway, what matters to get a scholarship would be your 4-year GPA in all sorts of subjects AND ACT/SAT scores. If you do happen to get to college because of a calculator, then are you really prepared for college? I wouldn't think so, you just know how to enter x=5, y=6 in a program and have it kick out your answer (unless you _wrote_ the program). Anyway, a calculator may help you get better scores on tests once in a while, but it doesn't make you smarter.

Nick Chaves

Unless it is on a protected disk, who would pay for something my geometry teacher will erase before a semester test? Even then I probably wouldn't buy it.

Only if A:It's Ti's software.B:There's no free prog like it.