Survey posted 2004-09-18 21:29 by Morgan.

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Isn't it illegal to charge for that or something?

It depends. It would definitely be illegal to claim credit for writing the program if you didn't write it. However, the License/Readme/EULA could prohibit redistribution or copying.

Unless you're merely charging the fee for the service of putting the games on the calculator, and not for the games themselves...

The documentation could specifically prohibit the act of the placement of the programs on a calculator, however.

The operator could be charging for simply using the persons calculator until the customer is happy with what has been altered.

Then they wouldn't be transferring files...

You can alter ones calc in many ways. One such way would be to send data to it.

Data: the program, the security variable, something else?

Point taken. However, I do believe there are some people in the world who don't care much about what's in the documentation.

Whatever is in the documentation certainly could not be legally binding in any way. It's obviously not covered by copyright law. Only contract law could possibly be involved, but it requires agreement by both parties to be binding.

Installing a program on a calculator does not require agreement to a contract (just as EULA's are legally dubious at best).

The DMCA elevates that "I Accept" button on the installer to the level of a contract. If you say, in your readme, that "by downloading this program, you have waived your right to any warantees, express or implied, including fitness for a particular purpose, and you agree not to reproduce the program in any way under penalty of the laws of the United States and international treaties except to the extent allowed by the laws of the United States and applicable international treaties" they can't do it, even if they didn't read the readme. You notified them of it, and it carries the force of a contract under the DMCA.

The DMCA has nothing to do with contracts. The DMCA is strictly a copyright law (Copyright is even in its name) supposedly intended to curb piracy. (It hasn't really curbed piracy; it HAS removed some of our rights like fair-use as well as stifle competition among manufacturers of garage door opener remotes, printer ink cartridges, cellphone batteries, etc.)

At least you understand that the DMCA is bad, though.

Besides, the documentation could state any condition to indicate agreement (e.g., "by opening your next bag of potato chips you agree..."), but it's still not legally binding in any way. Even in the hypothetical situation in which it would be binding, which two parties would the contract bind? Would it bind the receiver and the program's author, or would it bind you and the program's author?

As Jeremiah said, you can charge a fee for putting the game on the calculator but not for the game itself. I just added the small assumption that the owner of the calculator had already obtained the game and that you wouldn't be redistributing it.

If you DID redistribute copyrighted works against the copyright holder's wishes (and within their rights), it would be copyright infringement, pure and simple. Any documentation (the contract) prohibiting the redistribution of the game would be completely superfluous anyway. It'd be completely unnecessary like the DMCA, which harms more than it helps.

The DMCA isn't 100% evil. But let's not get into that.

If you accept an agreement that says "I will not lick the backs of Post-It Notes" technically you signed a contract which prohibits you from licking the backs of Post-It Notes. It's dumb, and probably unenforceable, but if they catch you licking the back of a Post-It Note, they can sue you for breach of contract. I referred to the part of the DMCA that clarifies this-breaches of copyrighted work (i.e., unauthorized copying) are copyright violations and breaches of the documentation are breaches of the implicit and/or explicit contract that constitutes the documentation legal section or EULA. However, you generally have to have control over manufacturing or distribution to limit end-use of a product (be careful-this does not mean behavior in general). This is why your potato chip line in your prospective readmes would get you sued by potato chip companies who have their own legal agreements with end-users. Contract law is delicate and tries to balance personal interests that are by definition at loggerheads. In short, please corroborate your statements with a reputable lawyer. I have. This, BTW, does not mean that I am threatening to sue you. I am not, and probably couldn't find you if I tried :).

I always seem to get into business arguments with you.

I mostly agree, but I was trying to point out that whatever action the contract specifies as an indication of acceptance is not necessarily legally valid in the first place. I would think that you wouldn't need to accept any contract just to do something like charge a service fee for installing a game on someone's calculator, and doing that would not indicate acceptance either.

By the way, you're right that the DMCA is not 100% evil. It's just the clauses like anti-circumvention and requiring ISP's to remove material from users' web sites that appears to constitute copyright infringement (a good way to supress free speech legally) that are evil. Most of the other clauses are just redundant with copyright law.

I'm sure you could find a million reasons to sue me if you wanted, such as for wasting your time and bandwidth on these long discussions, causing you mental anguish and suffering because of them, allegedly infringing on any of your copyrights (if you want to be mean), or stupid things like having a lower user ID than you. :) It's a good thing you won't, though. I probably couldn't defend myself (money-wise) even on baseless claims.

Dang, I always try to keep my replies short, but they always grow more than I'd like.

:-P[_] Mmm... tasty Post-It(tm) note!

Remember, a vendor doesn't have to sell you something. They cannot show a pattern of discrimination, but they can also deny you the product for not signing a contract. It's a conditional sale, or a conditional license depending on the nature of the exchange. This situation is sort of like a bank saying that to have an account at Flindisbarne National Lending Associates you must consent to disclosure of personal information etc. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Well I have recieved 5 dollars for about 20 games. It seems as though I am the only one so far who has chose, "Yes, it's been forced upon me, even though I tried to decline." Hmmmm maybe that says something, but then again, maybe it doesn't :)

okay, listen up you guys, this is probably the most evil thinga person can ever do, but i do it constantly... you know that bug with mirage os 1.1 where on the homescreen you go :1+1 and then lock and archive/hide it in mirage and when ppl go and and calculate something on the homescreen it locks up and is very hard to fix? well i do that to ppl's calcs and then I charge them money for me to fix em...hehehe

That's evil and funny! I would think that they would figure that one out after a while.

You think that's evil? Hah. About a week ago during Math we had an assignment to do. I was just typing away on my 83+ doing it when suddenly I burst out, not directing the message to anyone in particular:
"Hey, everyone. Press F5, Diamond, Open Bracket, R"
They, ofcourse, all did it and it locked their calcs up. The only way that they could get it unlocked is for me to enter the code from my 83+ or simply reset the calc. Many reset their calc and lost some of the assignment....

Diamond?

They were using 92ii and 92+. I memorised the quit code to send from my 83+.

I guess they had 89s, since 83+s don't have F5 or Diamond. What do you mean you typed in the code from your 83+? I'm confused...

He probably used a remote control program on a TI-83+ to unlock their TI-89's. I have used a TI-86 to control a TI-83+ before (but their link port mysteriously died (probably a loose wire) a few weeks later, & they blamed me - oh, well).

Um...doesn't that just them to the Program I/O screen? I'm pretty sure any competent calc user could get out of that with [2nd] [Quit]. And, seeing as they're 89 users, they probably have a good idea of how their calculator works...

They were borrowing 92ii/+ for the year. I got them to do some RAM tests before "R". Ie: "S"

Those are the same people who open questionable file attachments in all their emails, right?

Probably. Some people have no common sense when electronics are concerned. That's why it's fun!

And whose clocks flash "12:00" for weeks after a power outage?...

120d. I still have no idea how to fix that.

(: :)

Just put some electrical tape over it. Problem fixed. ,)

Duct Tape is waaaay more stylish! :)

See link. The one problem is that it conducts electricity slightly more than electrical tape and has a tendency to disagree with OFC in humid climates.

Files of the following extensions (some are made up):

.vgra
.lol
.usuk
.dll
.exe
.noob
.jpg_
.haha
.vrus

If it has an extension like .noob, how can the computer execute the code? They just wouldn't be able to run it, unless it was .noob.exe or something. I hate those "double extension" files.

I just don't open anything with EXE, COM, BAT, or SCR (unless it's from a friend and he told me earlier that he would be sending me an executable). There are others that I avoid, but that's all that's coming to mind at the moment. Besides, it's more than obvious when it's spam/virus mail.

From: izverysmart@hahahaha.com
Subject: Helo freind
Body: Hey this is old freind from long ago i remembar you!!!! i got new email addy i wuold tell you more later , but now i have suprise for you!!!! its realy funny screensaver hope u liek it!!111111
Attachment: hot_gurls_movie.exe

It's seriously hard for me to believe that people are that ___STUPID___. They don't deserve to use computers.

Oooh ooh oooooh, where can I get that screensaver?! That looks cool! C-8

What's even dumber is the fact that most people get spammed in the first place. I have never recieved a piece of spam, EVER. It's not that hard; you just give out a junk email adress instead of your real one. If the site doesn't spam you, then you switch over to your real email. But even so, my junk email adress doesn't even get spammed.

The hacker would put an interpreter virus on the computer.

If the "hacker" can put an interpreter virus on the computer in the first place, they could instead use it to do the dirty work and forego sending an interpreted file.

It's a lot easier to install an interpreter (which is generally smaller). Plus, the file extension .haha is a perfect example of what you were talking about.

I wrote a program that pretends to increase the processor speed. It then looks like it's done, but really it's just subtracting or adding a random number (1-3, usually works best). Plus, just for kicks, I had it recommend being put under 'startup'!!! I love torturing n00bs! Here's the idea of the code:
:Output(1,12,"Done
:While 1
:Input "",A
:RandInt(1,3)->B
:A-B -> C
:Disp C
:End

LOL! I do that! That's so much fun! "Hey, teacher? My calculator's broken! It says 1+1=7" It's even more fun when they DON'T notice it and you casually walk over and tell them that their answers look wrong.

But see, what I do is only change every fifth answer or so, so that they don't get too suspicious. Even more fun: Put it on your teacher's calculator when they have it on the projector screen :-D

Put it on the teacher's calc when they have it on the projector screen? BRILLIANT!! You, sir, are a genius.

It's so easy to get a hold of my teacher's calc, and he uses the screen all the time. AAH! I can't wait!

120d//!!!! You've *got* to tell us what happens!!!! :-D

I tried it today, but unfortunatly I'm talking AP Calculus, so we only use the overhead calc for graphs, and that program only works for home screen calculations. However, I did leave it running when I left class, so when he turns it on for his Trig class maybe it will get him. If nothing else, it will confuse him (since you can't get to [Y=] or some other menus from inside the program). Too bad I won't be there.

Maybe I should sabotage the Geometry and Alegbra teachers' calcs...My bro takes Geometry, so he could tell me the result. The tricky part is getting ahold of the calc...

Well, you could have your brother swap the calcs, you install the program, then on another day, swap the calcs back... *devilish grin*

That's a good plan... but the teacher calculators at our school have that big project screen plug in the back of them, so it would be pretty obvious.

About putting it on a teacher's calculator, I did have the chance to do it once (he said to send a file of mine to his calc--perfect opportunity), but I decided against it at the last minute. It would have been great. If I had the chance to do that now, I would definitely do it. :)

How do you make a BASIC program run on startup of an 83/+?

He put it under 'startup' so that it sounds important.

no...you use the "Start Up Application".....it's either here on ticalc, or at ti's site...it's free...

Yeah, I do that too! I'm still trying to find a way to make a program like that for an 89 though since the program input isnt always from the homescreen.

I heard that somebody made a program like this, I believe it was a TSR. Sounds like LOTS of fun. One of my friends has a TI-89 and I love to mess with it to annoy her. :-D

So exactly what var do you archive/hide?

I also chose that, making it a total of "2"
I think that just says something about both the operator (you/me) and the n00bs personality and view on TIs. Charging for someone elses program is wrong. I'm not so sure that it's wrong when you have a lot of requests from users with various calculators though as you go out of your way to bring a Graphlink to school or take their calc home.

Yay!, I was hoping to be proved wrong. LOL

>>Charging for someone elses program is wrong.

Retailing is wrong?

Well, if someone is stupid enough to pay for freeware...then...well...they are asking for it :)

What if it's NOT someone elses program... :) I sell math/science/ebooks that I make (I very seldomly take money, but I still do at times...)

Ha- I might try that. :) I bet a lot of people will want something like that for physics this year... (and if it's a program, it can mess up their math too! ;-) 1+1=3)

Charging to put the program on the calculator isn't wrong, though.

Free program: $0
Putting the program on the calculator: $5
Watching the n00b cry as the program clears his RAM: priceless. :)

You're cruel. :-D

No, I do that all the time...

$5 for 20 games when you can buy a silver usb link for $16 and put whatever you want on it?
But some people are willing to pay to stay ignorant.

Well actually the problem with most people I run into, is that they do not want to learn how to use the link and its software.

I also type up instructions for people who want games on their calculator when they don't want me to take their calculator home. Is that too nice of me? Hehe

Lets see em'!!

>>Let's see em'!!

em' meaning them is spelled 'em.

(: :)

I knew that...*hesitates*...I was just making sure you did...

...Sure...