The extremely observant will notice the older comment topics refer to "v0.8." Thanks to Bryan Rabeler for catching this slip-up -- it's really v0.9.

Chris

I noticed that slight nuice without even thinking. =)

I really hope that I'm not the only one who wishes that 83+ owners would start showing a little more restraint and age. Admittedly, the 83+ is the newest calculator, so most of its owners are sophomores in highschool or lower, who have little to no experience with graphing calculators. However, porting requests,
flames, and moronic statements are getting out of hand.

When the 89 first came out, 89 owners comlained that there were not enough games and given z80 game should be ported it (admittedly, that's a more rediculous than ION ports). Now, there are equal if not more programmers and games for the 89. The time will come for the 83+ as well.

In the meantime, be patient and respectful towards programmers for other calculators. If they come out with a good game, mail bombing porting requests and flames discourages 83+ development. Also, 83+ owners really need to take the time to read documentation on games and programs. Right now I'm receiving 20-40 emails a week from 83+ owners, and I don't even own the damn calculator! These are the typical questions:
1)"How do I get yor games onto an 83+?" 96% of these people don't have a graphlink.
2)"You're a f*cking liar. Your game doesn't work on my 83+". 60% of these emails are people who sent the 83p version rather than the 8Xp version. 85% never tell me which game. 80% don't know that they need to use ION.
3)"What is and where can I find "ion"?" 99.9% of the time ION is availible at the same place where the game can be downloaded.
4)"When are you going to port XXXX to the 83+?" Not this millenium.

Just because you own an 83+, that does not mean everyone else does. 82/85 owners don't complain about anything ;)

utterly fed up,
Sam Heald

lead programmer of the Zelda 8X project (no, it will not be availible for the 83+)

co-Founder of Void Productions (void.calc.org)

Hey... I'm just glad there are some decent games out for the 83+ at all (thanks for subhunt Sam). After all, the 83+ has only been out for about 5 months! It's kinda hard to make ASM games for the 83+ until someone provides a method for doing so. If Joe hadn't released Ion, we'd still be in the dark. If you don't know how to find Ion, but you were able to get Sam's email address, something is definitely wrong here. Give these people a break. They're human!

what are you talking about. we wouldn't be in the dark.

Exactly!

The majority of the emails I get are port requests as well. It takes so long to know the in's and out's of one calculator, but the majority of the people expect us to know everything about *all* of the calculators.

Also, I've seen really really dumb comments like: "Why are people still making games for the TI-83 when the 83+ is better?" Give me a break. Like the programmers buy every calc that comes out. If all a programmer has is a TI-85, then chances are, all of his/her games will be for the TI-85. And we have to live with that. If you own a TI-82, then pray for a port. Who's going to port? Not the TI-85 guy. Leave him alone. Find a good TI-82 programmer and give him the source. And a port to the TI-89? You can forget about it, unless it's a really small game.

Although I don't have an 83 anymore, I can still applaud Tom for a great looking game. The readme even says it has fireballs! Great job! =).

You know, if it didn't have fireballs though, I bet we would have seen comments like "What kind of mario game doesn't have fireballs?" People, enjoy what you have. If it didn't, so what? The programmers are all working for free.

My brother has a TI-83, and not an 83+. He probably will never buy an 83+ either. He's a math student, not a programmer. He already has one calc, why would he need another so similar? It just so happens he owns the same calc Tom does, and so now he has another game to play. Thank you Tom.

-Justin

All of us 83+ users should feel sorry, myself included for hounding the boards with port requests, now because of what we did on these poor programers. We should be offering to help not demanding and flaming other programers because they did not make a version for our calculator. I just hope some people would reconsider on their not supporting the 83+. Just because there are a few idiots that use the calc does not mean that there are other users that are waiting patiently. Personally, I and all my 83+ friends are very happy about the games that have come out espically subhund and ztetris. I don't care when it crashes my calc, I just copy it from someone else. Annoying, yes, worth flaming someone to death, no. Come back Ahmeed and Sam. Most of us love your work and do not want to loose you. We all just need to realize the amount of requests that we get. I guess it is because we are pusshy high school students that demand the world, not reality. I and I'm shure other 83+ owners would be willing to learn how to port games from the 83 to the 83+. Infact when Flash Explorer comes out we wont be having any of this at all. So I issue an apology from all the Ti 83+ owners.

I am a TI-83+ user. (I am a little regretful since for $6 more I could have gotte na 86 but I'm happy with what I got.) First of all This is only my 2nd post on the boards. What's wrong with you people. These guys are bringing good points and as I'm learning to program in ION I may not make games because of flames and all that. you Guys gotta stop. Well that's my 2 cents

p.s. what's flash explorer?

For your second post, imo I think it's pretty good :) You touch on a few major points that I've always wanted to address:
<flamebait>
1) Why don't people just spend $6 more for a clearly superior calculator that does everything better? There's no reason why you should get an 83/83+ unless you're an accountant or something and you need the financial functions. What good is it without these? I still haven't found it, to be honest.
</flamebait>
2) If you don't like how someone makes a program, or it's buggy, you don't need to send the programmer a harsh email telling him how he can cram his fecal-matter-resembling program up his behind. Chances are that the programmer will realize his mistake on his own anyway and fix the problem. Think about it - if you send him 48237423847 emails decrying his programming skills and telling him that he &@*!ing sucks, do you think he'll write any more programs? Probably not.
This is done as a service to people, everyone. They don't get paid for it. Flames and such are unnecessary stresses in their life that they don't need to deal with. If they spend hours of their time creating a quality program, that doesn't mean they're saying "Please inundate my email account with hundreds of 'YOU SUCK' messages." Use your logic here.

--BlueCalx

>flamebait taken

I have to respond to #1. Please define "everything better". I don't know about college, but in highschools around me the 82s and 83s are the "better". First, the math teachers rarely know how to use the higher calculators. I guess they bought their 82s long ago and do not adhere well to change. So if someone knew to calculators buys one of these "superior" calculators, then they are on their own in figuring out how to work it properly. Second, the 82/83 are easier to use than the 85/86 (and those calculators are easier than the 89). Because they lack features, the "inferior" calculators are allowed much simpler menu systems. Things are simply easier to find. The 82 has menus, the 86 has menus within menus, and the 89 has menus within menus within menus. An action on the 82 might take 2 key presses, while on the 86 it might take 3 or 4. Unless person X feels like lugging around his lunky 86 manual with him for a month, he'll be lost. A friend of mine bought an 86. I tried to teach him how to use it, but he finally traded it in for an 83+ because he got so disgusted with trying to remember which functions were where. Those extra features (which may/may not be used during hs) are worthless if they can not be used easily.

Obviously, anyone can learn to use any given calculator. In the long run, the "better" calculator might be a better purchase. However, 2 years after buying my 82 and 86, I still prefer an 82 for day-to-day simple math. Basically, I say that if you are only taking basic math courses, buy the 83+, don't burden yourself with an 89 just for better games.

If someone is reading this, then he already has bought his calculator. So no more discussion, yes?

Time to respond to this Rabeler-style:

--First, the math teachers rarely know how to use the higher calculators.

Who cares? If you know how to work them, then that's what counts. Inevitably, it's not your math teacher that does the work for you; it's you. You should be fluent with your calc the first day you come into math class.

--I guess they bought their 82s long ago and do not adhere well to change.

This is true, but it still doesn't concern the students. See above.

--So if someone knew to calculators buys one of these "superior" calculators, then they are on their own in figuring out how to work it properly.

I was on my own in purchasing the 89. It wasn't that hard getting used to the OS. Someone has to learn the darn things first ;)

--Because they lack features, the "inferior" calculators are allowed much simpler menu systems. Things are simply easier to find. The 82 has menus, the 86 has menus within menus, and the 89 has menus within menus within menus. An action on the 82 might take 2 key presses, while on the 86 it might take 3 or 4.

That's because the 86/89 both have more functions (blindingly obvious observation). For $6 more, I'd take functionality over complexity.

--Unless person X feels like lugging around his lunky 86 manual with him for a month, he'll be lost.

1) Textbooks are lunkier :)
2) I still carry my 89 manual around. It's a great reference.

--A friend of mine bought an 86. I tried to teach him how to use it, but he finally traded it in for an 83+ because he got so disgusted with trying to remember which functions were where. Those extra features (which may/may not be used during hs) are worthless if they can not be used easily.

To use a hackneyed internet acronym, RTFM :) Once you read the manual enough times, inevitably the locations of functions will be committed to memory whether you like it or not.
As for the 89, the menu system is simple enough that you really don't need to worry about that. At least, that's how it seems to me. I could be wrong, you know ;)

--Basically, I say that if you are only taking basic math courses, buy the 83+, don't burden yourself with an 89 just for better games.

This is very, very true. I bought an 86 in 7th grade and it served me just fine. I bought my 89 in precalculus, and it was quite a boon to my learning. I would suggest to anyone an 86 if they were below precalc and an 89 if they were in precalc or above right now. Same for above/below AP Physics.

--If someone is reading this, then he already has bought his calculator. So no more discussion, yes?

Of course I read this last ;).

--BlueCalx

I think it depends on what your first calculator was. My 86 is my first and only calc, so it didn't seem that complex. I suppose if you got a calculator that was easier to use, you'd be less inclined to sit down and even attempt to understand a more complex one.

>inevitably the locations of functions will be committed to memory whether you like it or not

hmm.. sounds like a conspiracy :)

About teachers and manuals...

That comment was directed mainly towards first-time owners of calculators. Rarely, do people read the manuals. Even less likely are "several readings". It's just human nature, I guess. 1/6 of my emails are just people who didn't read a game's 1K txt file (don't say you're not equally guilty of that occasionally *cough* Grand Car Stealer by Kirk Meyer *cough*). So who do these non-readers rely upon to teach them how to use their miracle of modern technology? Their teachers and fellow students. Unfortunately, an 8th grader with an 89 doesn't have anybody. Yes, one could argue that an 89 owner bought it with some prior knowledge of calculators (otherwise, they would have chosen a cheaper 83,86, etc.). But that's not the argument.

--functionality over complexity

By the time a kid is in 7th grade, graphing calculators are practically required. The extra features of an 89 or even an 86 are not needed for another 4 or 5 years! Why put an unneccessary burden upon himself with a more unique and complicated calculator than the majority of his class?

Your original question was: "Why don't people just spend $6 more for a clearly superior calculator that does everything better?"

I believe that question has been answered... (hopefully)

Oh, I took a PSAT test this morning, and low an behold "Myriad" was one of the words in the vocabulary section. Who woulda thought that coming to ticalc.org would teach you something?

--don't say you're not equally guilty of that occasionally *cough* Grand Car Stealer by Kirk Meyer *cough*

quiet, you :)

--I believe that question has been answered... (hopefully)

Well, there's arguments for both sides. I just fail to understand why a kid would waste $6 on an inferior calculator.

--Oh, I took a PSAT test this morning, and low an behold "Myriad" was one of the words in the vocabulary section. Who woulda thought that coming to ticalc.org would teach you something?

I remember when I saw the word "ensconsced" on /. the night before my SAT, and lo and behold it was on there :)
One of these days, I need to work the word "ensconsced" into a news item on ticalc.org.
*pondering*

--BlueCalx

Yep ... "myriad" was in the analogies, right? I took the PSAT too, on Tuesday.

Most PSAT tests that people get are different to prevent cheating.
At any rate, it probably was ;)

--BlueCalx

Actually, it was on the one I took as well.
- Matt

Ok first thing's first, my first calculator was a TI-82 way back in 6th grade, that grew to an 85, then an 86 by freshman year, then my 89 the summer before my sophmore year, and lastly, my ti-92 w/ plus module november time of last year. I personally believe, having used all the TI-graphing calculators (except the 73) that the two easiest to use, are the 89 and 92 w/plus mod/92plus. They have the most user friendly interface, and everything is very fluid and simple to access, and it all makes sense. They are a little bit slower than they could be, because the rom code for them was programmed in C, but they still present the user with the nicest interface, and most functionality. I also now own an 83 plus (just got it last summer for free from TI because they wanted me to beta test the SDK: NOTE, I cannot and will not give it out to anybody).

Another thing, people should know how to use their calculator on their own, they purchased it, they should learn how to use it, they should not expect their teacher's to teach them to use their graphing calculators, when the class is Precalc or calc, and not "intro to TI graphing calcs" it is the students responsability to learn how to use their calculator inside and out. I still know how to use every calculator I've ever had/borrowd inside and out, and as a result, I make money because I tutor people on how to use their calculators to do their math work, I even have teachers that ask me for help, because I am the "Goto guy" for calc help.

now, back to the topic of what this board is really for, the game looks great, haven't tried it out yet, still have to borrow my friends 83 to take a look at it. I hope the author doesn't give up on it like other programmers do (even though often times it's lack of appreciation and/or time) because he obviously is quite skilled as a programmer. I myself would love to see a port to the 83plus, but it doesn't mean i'm going to hound the guy to death, if he wants to release a port, he will... or he will allow somebody else to port it.

Basically, stay off programmers back, they get very little recognition for what they do, and they get hounded a lot, for something bad, or something good, it never ends.

Also, if you want a good calculator, that will last you pretty much through college, then buy the TI-89, contrary to what other people say, it is very easy to learn, it's even easier than the 82/83/83plus, people that can't figure it out, are the same people that don't know where to download ION, or don't know what a graphlink is, yet often times they come on message boards similar to this and spout as though they know it all, and that you should follow what they say. If you have the exra $20 t0 $40 go buy an 89, trust me, you'll be glad you did.

s0niqu3

In the same breath, you say that people should teach themselves how to work their calculators AND that you charge your fellow classmates money to teach them to use their calculators. A little contradictory, no?

No. It's perfectly coherent. The students getting charged failed to learn it on their own. If they had took the time to learn the calculator, they wouldn't have to pay up. Soniqu3 makes a nice profit off of his diligence.

~ferich

hey, i want to tell all programers how greatful i am for the programs out. i have tried to learn z80 and 68 k assembly to no avail, so i sympathize and enjoy the available programs, while maintaining a profound respect for those who write them. by the way, do you have to know assembly to be a beta tester
sean

a beta tester just tests (read 'plays') the game and reports any bugs, you must know EXACTLY what you did to make the bug and if it able to be repeated then tell the programmer. Also beta testers offer advice on what could make the game better. You dont need to know the language to be a beta tester, although it would help because you could communicate to the prgrammer in his own language.

so in a word: no

thank you a million times for the info, now how do i get to be a beta tester. i am fluent enough with assembly to know what im talking about. i just cant write the game and put it all together. i have a book and am studying the internet tutorials though.
sean

ANY ONE NEEDING A VERY RESPECTFUL BETA TESTER, email
address is in profile, or contact here if this message board is still up

ok! ill remember you if i have need of a beta tester! (if i ever get what im working on finished, that is!)

thanks a million, that would just be too cool. by the way, what calc,or calcs are you programing for? i have an 86, and an 89, and access to any of the others except maybe the 79, or whatever thats called. just curious
sean

TI-73, I think you mean, but you wouldn't need access to that; there's no ASM support on it and probably never will be. All the programmaz are t00 l33t fer dat. :)

i have an 86 and program in basic and asm
plus i may port some of my basic stuff to the 83

too cool. i love my 86 but since i got my 89 i havent really used it much. this would give me an excuse to pull it back out. since you know assembly tell me, ive been viewing the source code (actually codes) for zelda89 and would like to continue with the work. can i do all the work on an emulator, or virtual ti, or do i have to have special programing software. i want to be able to do work and then check it to see if the work is valid without taking three hours to compile the program etc...

I was one of the people in the beginning who first got 83's. I'm not sure if any of you remember, but when the first asm games came out for it, a lot of pretty good programmers got hounded for games. One of my friends, who is an expert programmer (he no longer releases his programs due to his previous experiences) received upwards of 100 messages in ONE MONTH giving "advice" or submitting "ideas". Programmers will program what interests them the most. I learned a little programming myself, not at the caliber of some of those programmers out there, but my friend is 26 years old, a professional programmer, and has made MANY programs for his calculator. You'd be amazed at what he has kept in that little box. I can't say much, but he's programmed complete games like zelda. Sometimes I ask him why he doesn't just release it. He said he used to have the satisfaction of people praising him for his work, but recently all he's been seeing is criticism. He told me Street Fighter 2 was probably one of the hardest games to program for the calculator in the entire history of TI's and HP's, and probably will be for several more years, but he STILL saw people complaining about not having enough characters, or the link play being too slow!!! He was surprised that the people who programmed SF2 actually made the rest of the programs for all these ignorant people who want stuff for free. I doubt many of the people who complain about games really know how much time and effort it takes to make them. My friend programmed a Zelda equivalent that took him over a year to make EASILY with several of his friends. Have you ever looked at code? Literally hundreds of pages of gibberish, and hundreds more hours to make them. I program mainly in C/C++ and the like, and when I tried to learn 68k asm, I was shocked at how hard it was. Many professional programmers out there would have trouble with it. I personally believe that if you can't do as a good a job as what you see... then you shouldn't be complaining. I make suggestions, but only when asked for my opinion, and I never complain, because it's better than what I can do. Personally I think people who complain about quality games that were given to them for free are the lowest people on earth... well not really, not as low as old men in hats who drive 35 in the fast lane... but that's besides the point... you get the picture.

amazing! someone else has realized that little old men in hats invariably drive more slowly than the rest of the world.

Damn strait. Give the programmers a break. I have almost 20 games for my 83+. Without ion i wouldn't have any. I can wait for cool games such as Mario. Go with the classics like tetris. Its already out.

This is really nothing new. When the Ti-86 came out, I dont think one game that was posted on Ticalc.org didn't have at least one guy in the comment board that said "Port this game to the Ti-86" Unless it was a Ti-86 game. After Making FF7 I got so many port questions I had to add the below section to my FAQ and change My E-mail policy. (Go to my site and Click any E-mail link for an Example.)

"Can you release Final Fantasy VII for the <insert calc name other than Ti-89/92 here. Usually Ti-86>"

I think annoyaning E-mail comes with the territory personally. For anyone Interested, Here's my top 10 annoyaning E-mail list ordered by Frequency:

1)I dont have a graphlink. Can I get a text file of <Insert Game name here>? (Usually for FF7. Sure, Ill make text files of all the pictures for you :P)

2)I have a Ti-89, How do you run <Insert game name here>? I type the name (without the parathesis) and it gives me some error.

3) When I Run this game, the program crashes. (this IS all they send you! No game name. No calc. No clue.)?

4)Can You port <insert game here> for the <insert calc name here>?

5)I can't get <insert OTHER PEOPLE'S program name here> to work. can you help me?

6)PROGRAM ASM!! BASIC SUCKS!! <Insert 2 pages of mindless rant here>

7)How do I Use My Graphlink?

8)Here's My URL <Insert URL Here> Put it on your page. (keep in mind, I have no link archive on my site)

9)I tried opening a <Insert a group file name here> and the graphlink caused an error. Whats wrong?

10) Here's My game <insert game file here> Put it on your site. (keep in mind. My site is not File archive either)

Stop bitching. Anyone that asks half that stuff doesn't know enough to read or find this message board. I like getting feedback on my games. If I don't like the email then its real simple... DELETE! Its not too hard! There are enough mature responses to relize that your game is not shit. And if you're asked to port it, take it as a complement. Obviously it looks good and somebody wants to play your game. As for the difficulty of porting... It isn't hard and you don't need to own every calc just an emulator. Common sense people.

But don't you need a ROM image to use an emulator?

Well, when most of these questions could be easily answered by reading either my webpage FAQ (which keep in mind, Is forced on you if you want to E-mail me through my site) or the Readme file that comes with the program, then that means there's either some sort of literacy problem going on or people want you to baby them through their usage of their calculator, which In my opinion, is not the correct way to learn how to use any computer device. Calculator or PC.

I don't have problems with People E-mailing me to complement my efforts on one of my games, but I do have problems when people think Im the One Stop, All Knowing, All Seeing, Holy Dali Lama of all things Ti calculator related and start asking me the same thing over and over when the answer is there punching them in the face.

As for Porting Difficulty. FF7 is written in 68000 Ti-Basic. I'd like to see someone port this game in it's entirity, Using Z80 Ti-Basic, without losing any of the sprite graphics, speed, animation, line and circle drawing capabilities and without using any form of ASM on something like a Ti-86

the 82 and 85 completely SUCK. I don't like your pushy attitude, fine, don't make any games for our "stupid 83+ calcs" I think that was kinda stupid what you said about "almost everyone who owns a 83+ has no experience" I thred the Zelda beta for my old 83. Good graphics, but the game play is useless. Dont expect to get 83+ owners' sopport to your site any more!

-tectono-