* Denotes Winner <-- that star should be in red, not black.

Thanks, we fixed it.

Good job guys... at least you are good at fixing some things. Now if only the same could be said about your PR problem.

What happened to the nice little table? When I refreshed just now, it turned into:

LE>

* Denotes Winner

Yeah, I got the same thing here and on the front page, and no more picture.

???

Okay, this is written pretty late at night after one of the more lackluster days of my life, so I'll try to make this as good as possible.
--
Numerous occurences of simian idiocy in news posts of recent weeks have caused me to once again post on the state of ticalc.org as I see it. Let's try and set some things straight:
1) As I saw it, Bryan's firing did not constitute a "PR problem." It was needed and inevitable. IMO it was carried out in a swift, just manner, and it needed to be done. Bryan simply couldn't work well with the other members of the ticalc.org team. Other qualms were voiced by ticalc's members as to previous behaviors of Bryan's (i.e. the ti-files hack and the [mis]handling of the file backlog). It neeeded to happen sometime. Don't whine about it.
2) Bryan is at a state of petty retaliation at the moment. Ignore his posts of infinite lameness.
3) Though ticalc.org is attempting to go on with business at the moment, apparently it has become clear that people can't accept that. Some unnamed individuals feel that it's their God-given right to scrutinize and tear apart every single little fault in ticalc.org's well-put together system. If anyone can give me a good reason why they're doing this please email me at bluecalx@antisocial.com. I don't want to flood the comment boards with off-topic comments.
4) As explained in a previous post, I'd like to see you go out and make a site comparable to ticalc's caliber. With the possible excpetions of TI-Files and Dim-TI, nobody has come even close. You have to give ticalc some credit for what they've done in the past two years. All three major TI sites are very good, run by people of incomparable talent. Don't knock them unless you can do it yourselves.
5) TI-Files goes through a security compromising, and the firing of three key members, and noone says anything about it. When Rabeler gets the boot, all of a sudden everyone goes apeshit. What gives? Is everyone pro- TI-Files or something? Or at least anti-ticalc? I thought competition between sites was close to elimination as of past months, but now I realize otherwise.
--
Well, that's my two cents for the week. Anyone who wants to talk to me about the everlasting quandary with ticalc.org can find me in #ti on EFNet as BlueCalx, or send me an email.

I personally do not care about the entire Bryan incident. It is the visible attitudes of many of the members of ticalc that bother me. And perhaps you should advise your ticalc buddies to follow your advice, and ignore Bryan.

Exactly what visible attitudes do you speak of?

<< 1) As I saw it, Bryan's firing did not constitute a "PR problem." >>

As I see it, ticalc.org has a PR problem _after_ the incident. The PR problem didn't _cause_ the incident.

<< 2) Bryan is at a state of petty retaliation at the moment. Ignore his posts of infinite lameness. >>

You guys can ignore NickD's comments also, they also fall under this category.

<< 3) Though ticalc.org is attempting to go on with business at the moment, >>

"attempting" being they key word there.. you are going on with life acting like nothing has happened.

<< 4) As explained in a previous post, I'd like to see you go out and make a site comparable to ticalc's caliber. With the possible excpetions of TI-Files and Dim-TI, nobody has come even close. >>

Your wish is my command. BTW - have you forgotten The Fargo Archive (TFA)? I think most would agree it was a damn good website for its time.

<< You have to give ticalc some credit for what they've done in the past two years. >>

And who has done a good chunk of that work? Who tested every program on their calculator to ensure the highest quality of programs? Wouldn't most agree that the file archives are the lifeblood of this site?

<< All three major TI sites are very good, run by people of incomparable talent. Don't knock them unless you can do it yourselves. >>

You don't think I can do it?

<< 5) TI-Files goes through a security compromising, and the firing of three key members, and noone says anything about it. When Rabeler gets the boot, all of a sudden everyone goes apeshit. >>

There are a number of possible reasons for this.

1. TI-Files doesn't have comments to their news, so where are they supposed to express their opinions?

2. I think most would agree, that, I have done more work on ticalc.org than all three of those TI-Files members combined.

3. ticalc.org has more regular visitors than TI-Files, so when something like this happens, naturally there is a bigger outrage.

<< I thought competition between sites was close to elimination as of past months, but now I realize otherwise. >>

You are obviously out of the main-stream. Where have you been, in a comma? Competition is a good thing, it gives sites modivation to get better.

Bryan, did you ever consider that just MAYBE his comments were not directed at you specifically?
oh, and what exactly does Nick have to retaliate for?

I never said they were. I just responded with my thoughts. Do you have a problem with that?

it seems to me that you've been a bit on edge in your comments. perhaps don't take everything as a direct assault on your person. lighten up, man, it's not even real life! ]:-)

-KAKE
IP
"saw the up side of down"

This is my poll. If you care about Bryan and the entire ordeal reply yes to this. If you don't reply no to this. If you wish Bryan to shutup because no one cares @ all, then reply with your feeling on how lame Bryan is for being so obsessed with calculators.

-Asymtope-
"No one cares @ all"

1) I think I've argued that one enough so no need to do it again here.
2) "Free Speech"
3) This is basically the same as point number 1; there are loads of Bryan-supporters and those who strongly feel that firing Bryan was the wrong thing to do. Those who feel strongly enough, think that ticalc.org can never recover. We'll see if they're right.
4) On one hand, you're right. ticalc.org has accomplished tremendous things and is an incredible site. But on the other hand, it is true that Bryan was responsible for a very large part of that. ticalc.org shouldn't be commended for Bryan's work, but for their own work.
5) The main difference is that TI-Files fires people who don't work hard enough. That's normal. I don't know exactly which 3 you're refering to, since there has been a great deal more than 3 all together. But actually, most of the people "fired" from TI-Files actually just quit because they didn't like how TI-Files was run (and/or other reasons). The ones who are fired are those who don't work enough, which is most of them. It's normal to fire a slacker, but not to fire the main power behind a site like ticalc.org.

I do agree with you about many things you said. As there's people like me out there who feel that ticalc.org WAS benefitted by his excommunication, there's the other side of the story, which I neglected to mention in my previous post; that bryan DID contribute considerably to ticalc.org. However, when one is given TOO much power, and for some reason they catch the plague and spontaneously die, or they get wild sex0r from a cheerleader and overnight they reform their nerdisk ways, bad things happen to the site. ticalc.org was intended to be a team effort. I felt that during the glory days of Bryan, that wasn't being achieved. Though he is a hard-worker, he's also a bad compromiser, as evidenced by his behavior in #ti and on ticalc.org. For a while this was tolerated, but there had to come a time when the other members of ticalc said "enough" and handed bryan the pink slip.
As for ti-files, I was referring to you and worry primarily. (ACK i just realized you weren't fired, you quit; :) did this happen to Worry too?) Both of you were crucial elements to the Files, but their losses apparently didn't dent them *too* much. (besides the hack and all) I'm trying to compare this to ticalc.org, where a key element of the process was just lost.
--
BlueCalx

Ok, I understand your point of view, but in the beginning of this thread it seemed that you thought that your point of view was the only one. It's not, other people, including myself, may think ticalc.org did not benefit from the "excommunication."

I'm curious as to why, if part of the reason Bryan was "excommunicated" was because of his behavior on IRC, he still maintains ops on the channel. Bryan seems to be one of the only ticalc.org member who regularly visited IRC. IRC is a valuable resource for ticalc.org, and I think Bryan had been doing more helping than hurting. Maybe if ticalc.org maintained the channel better, they would be more informed of how Bryan was really acting.

As for the TI-Files analogy, it isn't quite working :) I quit TI-Files, and it was only after that we came to bad terms. Worry also quit because he, too, felt he was mistreated. And I personally think TI-Files isn't doing nearly as well now :)

I guarantee you that the reasons for Bryan Rabeler's dismissal were not solely or even mainly because of his IRC behavior. BlueCalx hits very close to home about the cooperation. Yes, it is true that Bryan mantained the file archives single handedly, but the reasons for this are not what you might expect. It isn't that the rest of ticalc.org's staff is lazy and doesn't do anything. Quite the contrary. We would have been willing to do as much as work as Bryan or share the workload so that he didn't have to work hard, but he simply would have none of it. He wanted to do it all himself. Even so, the file archives are not the only work that is done on the site. Perhaps it is the most visible, most evident, and maybe the most popular, but I guarantee you there were people working behind the scenes, and without them Bryan couldn't have accomplished all he did. For one, the file archives updating rate was facilitated by the prescense of automation, automation that takes care of writing the HTML, managing the updates, creating the fileinfo pages, and mailing the file news, and without this automation, all of that would have to be done by hand which translates to more time required. Second, there are many other sections and aspects of ticalc.org that contribute to its success. The layout and interface which imho is easy to use and good looking wasn't designed by Bryan. All the CGI scripts which you use to upload files weren't written by Bryan. The reason that things led to this are because of failure by both sides to compromise. Naturally, the transition to others doing the filearchives will cause changes, and won't result in picture perfect archives, but I think in the long run we will be able to provide the same or better service. And if we don't and people aren't happy with it, I'm sure competition will bring a site that does better. We do this for the community for free, if we're not useful then it's time for us all to move on, but I don't think we have reached that day.

<< Yes, it is true that Bryan mantained the file archives single handedly, but the reasons for this are not what you might expect. It isn't that the rest of ticalc.org's staff is lazy and doesn't do anything. Quite the contrary. >>

Lets, see. I can name a handful of staff members who don't do much of anything. Maybe not you, or the other coordinators, but others.

<< We would have been willing to do as much as work as Bryan or share the workload so that he didn't have to work hard, but he simply would have none of it. He wanted to do it all himself. >>

Is there anything wrong with that? I wanted to do the file archives and news. That's it. There are many other sections that have been neglected for a long time, such as Reviews. You could have worked on those.

<< The reason that things led to this are because of failure by both sides to compromise. >>

Well, good. I'm glad you see that the coordinators aren't always right.

<< Naturally, the transition to others doing the filearchives will cause changes, and won't result in picture perfect archives, but I think in the long run we will be able to provide the same or better service. And if we don't and people aren't happy with it, I'm sure competition will bring a site that does better. >>

You can say that again.

<< We do this for the community for free, if we're not useful then it's time for us all to move on, but I don't think we have reached that day. >>

Tomorrow is sooner than you think.

<<Lets, see. I can name a handful of staff members who don't do much of anything. Maybe not you, or the other coordinators, but others. >>
Most of them are labeled inactive, but your implication that you were the only one doing work is a gross exaggeration.

<<Is there anything wrong with that? I wanted to do the file archives and news. That's it. There are many other sections that have been neglected for a long time, such as Reviews. You could have worked on those. >>
Yes there is something wrong with that. You yourself say that file archives are the life blood of the site. No matter how good you are or think you are sometimes you didn't have the time for whatever reason. That is when others should step in. Furthermore, you make the assertion that we are all lazy and that's why we don't do anything. This isn't true.

<<Well, good. I'm glad you see that the coordinators aren't always right. >>

We never made that assertion, but of course the fact that you aren't always right is always true too. And in fact, there is a much higher probability of more than one person being right if they agree than a single person being right.


<<You can say that again.>>

Say it as many times as you want, but I don't think your going to be the one accomplishing it if you continue to waste time nitpicking our site.

<<Tomorrow is sooner than you think. >>
I could care less when tomorrow is. I am not afraid of it.

<< Most of them are labeled inactive, but your implication that you were the only one doing work is a gross exaggeration. >>

I never said I was the only one doing the work, however I believe I put in just as much time as everyone else did, if not more.

<< No matter how good you are or think you are sometimes you didn't have the time for whatever reason. That is when others should step in. >>

Right.. but not when I am only gone for five minutes!

<< Furthermore, you make the assertion that we are all lazy and that's why we don't do anything. This isn't true. >>

I never said you never did anything. When did I say that?

<< And in fact, there is a much higher probability of more than one person being right if they agree than a single person being right. >>

Perhaps.. but in this case, you had 2 years of file archive experience vs. 4 coordinators with little or none experience at file archives. You just can't override 2 years of experience like you did.

What is with you two? I swear, of all the people who visit/use/run this site, you two are by far the most immature. Ya know, I could spend my time quoting every word the next guy and telling him why he's wrong, but then again, I HAVE A LIFE. I suppose this constant bickering will continue until either of you gets one. Too bad. Guess I'll go to TI-Files now.

KnightRT

<< However, when one is given TOO much power, and for some reason they catch the plague and spontaneously die, or they get wild sex0r from a cheerleader and overnight they reform their nerdisk ways, bad things happen to the site. >>

I wonder what you are refering to here? I didn't have any power when this happened. Before all the staff members were more or less equal, but then the staff forced this new "staff structure" on me, which I opposed, and that gave the coordinators the "power".

<< ticalc.org was intended to be a team effort. I felt that during the glory days of Bryan, that wasn't being achieved. Though he is a hard-worker, he's also a bad compromiser, as evidenced by his behavior in #ti and on ticalc.org. >>

Well it appears that the coordinators view on compromise is submitting to their decisions. There are some things in life you can't compromise on. There are absolutes and rules. Now I tried to explain my position on the file archives and Kirk (being the backup file archiver), since I had been doing them for the last two years, and they just didn't accept anything I said. They basically told me that my experience didn't matter, and that they were right.

EXCUSE ME Nick. Bryan is NOT the one acting like an ass in #ti. Infact its YOU who are the ass. It is really humurous how you can even type that lie. You ban newbies, people who are trying to help other peoplem and anyone who disagrees with you! Bryan was more to this site than any of the other members combined (with the exception perhaps of Magnus). You shouldn't say that ticalc.org lost its "team atmosphere" because of bryan. I believe that it lost its team atmosphere when some of the tyrants running this site decided that they wanted the credit instead of having bryan get his deserved credit

Regards,

Raven

If I remember correctly, you were kickbanned in #ti. I made the request for it.

[14:02] *** CalcMaze sets mode: +b *!*@*.fornax.com
[14:02] *** RavenMoss was kicked by LinkPort (banned)

I do, however, agree with you on everything else. BlueCalx is the man and you shouldn't be dissin him.

I'm flattered :)

George, that's really cool you know how to 'ban' people from channels. But you didn't post what he did wrong? Why don't you post that and let us decide why he was banned.



-danny

First off, that ban was a request. I had no intention on banning you in the first place.
Second, I never kick newbies *because* they ask questions. I kick newbies who ask questions about five or six times in the span of two minutes because they don't realize that nobody knows in the channel, or put their questions on timers (this gets more annoying than any human can comprehend).
Third, I rarely ever kick people who disagree with me unless we get along well and they know I'm just kidding around with them. I *never* ban people simply because they have a different viewpoint from mine. If I did that, Snowball would have been kb'ed last night less than two minutes into that fight and #ti would have been a hell of a lot quieter.
Finally, the reason I was for the firing of bryan wasn't because he was taking all the credit. It was because he failed to compromise on countless issues and took all work into his own hands. When other members asked if they could help, Bryan shunned them and went on with his work. Granted, he does have a good work ethic. But he did take the concept of a team out of ticalc.org for quite some time, and I still don't think he can fully come to terms with WHY he was fired.
--
BlueCalx

<< First off, that ban was a request. I had no intention on banning you in the first place. >>

Well, you might want to take a look at the first ban on the MrZ80 bot in #ti:

<MrZ80> [ 1] *!*@*.fornax.com (perm) (sticky)
<MrZ80> BlueCalx: Requested and enjoyed
<MrZ80> Created 15:02

That hostmask is RavenMoss. That ban was set by you. Shall we see the other bans you set?

<MrZ80> [ 3] *!*@*.bc.wave.home.com
<MrZ80> BlueCalx: Didn't you say you were quitting #ti?
<MrZ80> Created 17:44
<MrZ80> [ 4] *!*@*.gotonet.at
<MrZ80> BlueCalx: Didn't you say that you were quitting #ti?
<MrZ80> Created 17:21

These don't look like very nice ones to me...

Bryan, I'd prefer if you didn't discuss the internal affairs of #ti on this messageboard. Also, what do those other bans have to do with anything? Setting bans is one of the most important parts of channel administration, and the comments do not always mean anything. I think you are giving the wrong impression, and I would be quite pleased if you ceased to trash owners, masters, and ops of #ti in this public forum. If you have a specific complaint that you can back up, bring it to either me or any of the other owners. Thankyou.

Oh you're right, we wouldn't want this stuff to get out into the open now would we?

It seems to me that the owners and bot masters in #ti are a bit too ban happy, especially Cory Bueller (Cubic). I have been kick banned in #ti for what seems to be no reason at all. Being an op or especially a bot master is serious business but apparently people such as ldspartan can't understand that. Don't ask me what do I know about ops? I am an owner of #68kasm on EFNet. My response to ldspartan is you have no business talking about you being responsible because that you are not. I should not have been able to request a permanent ban for Will Dempster (Ravenmoss) either. That is the business of ops to decide bans and not someone like Nick (bluecalx). The ops in #ti are irresponsible, reckless, incompetent, and generally have no business with such a position in an important channel like #ti.

I don't appreciate being banned for no reason or by immature ops. Don't the owners and ops realize that's lame?

ldspartan:

I think that we should REALLY talk about #ti on this message board. It has been brought to my attention that ops in #ti aren't perfect angels :P

If #ti, in my mind at least, is ever going to get back to the way it use to be there needs to be some radical reform in the way that the channel is run.

To avoid all flames: I am not pointing out one op in general but rather all of the ops. This is because the ops not only set the mood in the channel they set the example as well.

Regards

Raven

What example are you talking about? #ti ia not a reflection of ticalc.org. irc.ticalc.org is simply one of the hosted pages UNDER ticalc.org that has to do with calculators. Our actions in #ti, whether good or bad (usually good), don't reflect what happens on this site.
I'll concede on the reform part, though, but it's not as if a total exile of the owners needs to occur. Rules need to be drawn up that outline what ops/masters/owners can and can't do. We're working on that, and it should be functioning soon.
--
BlueCalx

My previous reply to this message was a completely inappropriate flame. It was wrong to post my personal disagreements with the management of the EFNet channel #ti as a flame. I am truly sorry and apologize to anyone I might have humiliated, angered, or otherwise harmed as a result of my post. I ask ticalc to delete my other post in reply to ldspartan's post.

BlueCalx,

You have to admit that you have permbanned me for no reason b4 have you not? As bryan stated b4 you ban people for NO reason. You have not only banned me from #ti but took over my own channels. Now where is the etiquette there? Anyway, im sorry for what missunderstandings may have arrisen from this... all i want is an apology BlueCalx, and i will extend the same courtesy to you.

Regards

Raven

This is in response to George Limpert's previous article in regards to #ti's ops. I didn't want the window to get too narrow. That can get quite annoying after a while :)

Nato, I don't know who banned you in #ti, but I'm sure they had a good reason. I was absent at the time but masters/0wners in #ti never, ever kickban people for no apparent logical reason. There's always some provocation that arises to warrant action.
As for the way #ti is run, you have to give credit to the seven owners for keeping things together. I speak on behalf of ldspartan, Cubic, methanol, aselle, Err, XetovSS, and Mastriz when I say that #ti is running damn fine at the moment, and without their insurmountable efforts we would have been in chaos long ago. <endlesssuckingup> Cubic and ldspartan, most notably, are two of the best owners in a channel I've ever seen; their dedication to the channel reflects in how well the channel is being run at the moment. </endlesssuckingup> Anyway, I believe you were overreacting just a smidge when you got kickbanned from the channel. If you had attempted to reason with an op or owner *cough*/msg BlueCalx*cough* I'm sure the ban would have been lifted.
--
BlueCalx

It's impossinle to reason with #ti ops. After they kickban you, they ignore you. As for you, bluecalx, you are responsible for numerous senseless bans.

bluecalx, die
at0m, ur lame
ldspartan, stfu
cubic, you suck

a) at0m is not a #ti op
b) sometimes you do get banned for a silly reason. These things happen.
c) if you're going to tell me to stfu (shut the f*ck up) you should do it on irc as opposed to hiding out on a messageboard that I hardly ever check.
d) you are a coward.
Oh, and if you want to respond, find me on irc. I'm trying to wean myself off these messageboards.

This too is a response to young Mr. Limpert's comments.
He mentions being "kick banned in #ti for what seems to be no reason at all" and that "being an op or especially a bot master is serious business." Well, speaking of being banned for no reason, his channel, #68kasm, has all of the ops and most of the regulars of #ti banned for no apparent reason. He claims that there was a takeover threat from a #ti op, but he neither remembers who that op is or has logs to back it up.
I know for certain that this op was not me, and yet I was, and still am banned from his channel. Now, I don't mind when people point out any faults there may be with #ti, but I don't like it when I try to discuss a post with a person and have that person quit irc because he doesn't want to discuss it with me further and cannot back up his statements. In fact, that is exactly what happened when I found Mr. Limpert on irc. If you would like to see the log I made of our conversation, it is the url at the top of this article.
Before I finish this post, I'd like to say that his statement "The ops in #ti are irresponsible, reckless, incompetent, and generally have no business with such a position in an important
channel like #ti." makes no sense. If it wasn't for the hard work of the ops, owners, and masters of #ti, it would either not exist at all or fall into a state of anarchy. Also, when someone calls me "irresponsible, reckless, [and] incompetent" I would prefer if said person had something to back it up with.
For the rest of the story, check out the url above.

--
ldspartan, <ld.spartan@usa.net>

Did you read the rules about posting...they clearly say no flames. I posted an apology for my flame and I expect nothing less from you. Also, those logs have no business being released publicly. The bans of #ti ops and regulars is because of one lame individual who has since lost his flags and been banned from the channel permanently. I would also like to say that I think that #ti is partly responsible for the anarchy in the TI community, notice the huge number of posts concerning the issue of IRC.
As for the takeover, #68kasm was taken over temporarily by a regular on #ti who uses the nick Levine. I was banned from #ti because of a flame that as of now ticalc has not yet removed despite my request. I had my nick stolen at the apparent request of #ti ops. That, however, I cannot completely confirm. All this over a flame...and then I'm flamed by the same person who's doing this because of my flame. I request that ldspartan issue an apology for his meaningless flame and request its removal. Respond ldspartan... I dare ya =)

Actually, I told you on irc that I didn't have time last night to retract my flame, that's what I came here to do now.
As to ticalc.org not deleting your flame as you requested, I'm sure the staff has better things to do than monitor a messageboard that spends allot of time bashing ticalc.org itself.
As to #ti in general, bear in mind that the actions of #ti regulars, ops, or otherwise outside of #ti are no business of mine nor is #ti or anyone else responsible for the actions of these individuals.
I full well intended to retract my flame today, in fact that's the only reason I came across the above message. Your message indicates to me that your "apology" was not sincere in the least, but nonetheless I told you I would retract my statements and I will.

In view of the recent posts by youung Mr Limpert, I hereby retract my previous statement.

Oh, and about me responding to your flame with another flame... That's why flames are bad. I have no choice to respond, and hence a flame war starts. I will not sit back and allow people to call me ignorant on a messageboard I would most likely not check regularly. Actually, you can call me whatever you like, but you better be able to back it up.
And the log I had/have every right to post, as I recorded it and it was my property.
One last thing, my flame wasn't meaningless, it was an effort to cast doubt on the veracity of your statements. And I think I did this quite well.

--
ldspartan, <ld.spartan@usa.net>