It's kinda funny... this TI site is like the U.S. Government. They give you freedom and no real rules, but then the ammendments and bills come in, making things more restricted. You guys get my drift?

Listen, people. I personally came here ONLY ONCE to do something other than get programs, and that was to get the link cable plans. I guarantee you that there is a large amount of people that ONLY use this site to get new programs. And who is (was) in charge of the archive? Bryan Rabeler. It looks like nobody else even peeks at some areas, like the reviews. For crying out loud, it's a website, not a S&P 500 megacorp. You're just a bunch of guys united because you want to make a good TI-Calc web page. And on top of it, you don't go BSing around claiming he left when YOU cut him off. That's just plain pathetic. Besides, I can't count how many times his QUADFORM for TI83 has saved my butt on a math test. You had a great thing going. It's gone.

As far as I know, nobody has claimed that Bryan left on his own idea.
Now that that is said, it's very much true that it is not a large corporation, but a small group of people working on a website. And for just this reason, it has to be "fun" to do the job, or people will just quit. And endless flame-wars on internal mailinglists is NOT fun. The option in the fairly short term would be losing most of the rest of the staff.

When an organization such as ticalc.org exists as an entity, it will be in a state of continuous evolution. Eventually, such growth will necessitate the abolition and creation of organizational structure(s) for the "common" good of its officers, laborers, and those whom it serves. These are fundamentally philosophical and intensely practical issues (and will ultimately mean the difference between survival or decay).

However, what I see lacking is any clear organizational philosophy in these comments. Instead, there's just a lot of politics -- on both sides. I would be surprised to learn if there exists in writing any standard policy or procedure for the discipline or termination of an "employee" of ticalc.org (I say this because it appears that the coordinators made up their minds what to do as they went along). Now, I think that when an organization exists as a group of leaders with one chronic dissenter, it is to the benefit of all that they part ways.

I will say that I tend to support the decision to terminate Bryan (though not necessarily for the reasons given). What troubles me, though, is the issue regarding the tampering of votes. It would be appropriate that the vote should have stood. At the very least, the vote could have been ruled null-and-void and an entirely new vote taken after further discussion with ALL voting members. I would really like to know what Robert's Rules of Order have to say on this, but it seems unenthical the way it was handled. It makes it really difficult to accept the item Chris listed as part of a coordinator's responsibility: "...upholding the site's integrity." (It would not surprise me to learn that something such as this could jeapordize an organization's non-profit status, though I don't know for sure).

For those who aren't clear on this, two weeks is the customary time period an employer expects an employee to remain in service from the time notice of RESIGNATION is tendered to the time when separation actually occurs. Every employee that I've had to terminate was always immediate (however, it was done in person).

I'm going to reserve my final judgment as I watch and see how the "powers that be" conduct themselves in the near future. But I think that they ought to take a really close look at their own misconduct and own up to it (just as they had to "lean on" Bryan to do the same).

Okay, your stories are very alike. I think that both parties have told the same story from their perspective, and perhaps now you both can discuss it like mature induviduals and if not come back together, at least settle things face to face, instead of using news stories.

About three years ago, shortly after recieving my first calculator, a TI-92, I stumbled upon this site. This site was the first large site I found relating to the calculator. I thought it was fantastic, but it seemed abandoned! I don't remember the details exactly, but the last update was somewhere around a few months old. Some time later I discovered the Fargo Archive, which immediately became my favorite site. I think the point is, ticalc is going to either become a site run by immature calculator nerds with serious ego problems or it is going to become a ghost town again. Bryan, a person for whom I have great respect, made this site wonderful and those who are on the staff made a serious mistake. Oh well, I'm looking forward to another great site like the Fargo Archive once was.

All of you people have to grow up. At any job if someone is being a stickler about details and generally slowing down work, he must be dealt with, be it with a word or two on the side or with a firing as is this. Both sides have their valid points, but in the long run it was often the majority vs. one person. When running a site like this, the coordinators must look towards what is best for the people using it. This is what this appears to be, and both sides should get over it.
It is regrettable that Brian had to be discharged, because he did a good job, but such things must be done for the general welfare of the site.

Well, this certainly has been an interesting week, hasn't it?

The thing that I've continually seen while scrolling down these comments is that Ticalc either means the world or nothing to every person on the list. There is no in-between, which I think is fairly sad.

First, for the people that think this is world: Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. Also, before I start on this, let me say that I am in no way bashing the site. I have great respect for each and every "staff member" or whatever they choose to call it. This is a tough thing to do, and they've done it well. But, it is by no means the end-all be-all site on the internet.

Yeah, games are fun, and *yeah* the math programs can sometimes bail you out on a math test, but this is like a little bubble. When you don't get your head out of the sand and look around, it *does* seem like this is the only and best site around.

To sum that up, in case you got lost (I don't blame you if you did; I am lost myself), quit whining. It's not like this site will decide the fate of the calculator industry; it just won't. Has it yet?

To address the people who couldn't care less about the site: Most of them are right to an extent, but I do have to admit that the archives are a valuable resource. I will also concede that nobody reads any of the stuff posted on the site, with the probably exception of the news on the main page. I do enjoy the site, but I'll admit that I don't read most of the material on the page, and I'm willing to bet that a majority of the people who visit the page don't, either.

This site is an important place for people to get their programs, however, and the archives have been very well maintained, as well they should be. I don't know if that will change with the departure of Bryan, hopefully it won't, but I do forsee the site losing a bit of my interest. For one, I don't exactly *like* what has happened with all of this mudslinging going on....Bryan and Chris (Sorry, had to pick out one of you guys) mainly throwing stuff back and forth at each other.

So, in conclusion, get over it. The end.

Eric Hansen

the real problem with all this discussion is that none, or at least very few, of you have worked with Bryan in an administrative situation. In my dealings with him on IRC, I can understand the staffs point. Don't get me wrong, I like him quite a bit, but he was a pain in the ass, to put it mildly. He used to be an owner, meaning very powerful, in #ti, but he would obsess over things and generally cause trouble. On several occasions he tampered with other owners flags (for those of you who don't know, "flags" on irc allow people to become operators of a channel and other such things. They allow changes to the power structure and such.) Needless to say, this did not contribute to his popularity among the other owners, but we let him remain so in accordance with our pseudo policy of giving ticalc.org members power. Recently, particularly in the days. leading up to his dismissal, he had become more and more beligerent, and had started to change flags and settings on a more massive scale.
I hope that all you people who don't know the whole story understand that you can't grasp a situation without experiencing it. I have worked with Bryan, and I agree with the ticalc.org staff on this one. As far as I know, a large portion of the other owners share this view.
By the way, if you reply to this, and want me to respond, email me. I don't read ticalc.org messageboards cumpulsively.

I normally don't respond to these things, but I have to respond to this one to clear some things up.

<< On several occasions he tampered with other owners flags (for those of you who don't know, "flags" on irc allow people to become operators of a channel and other such things. They allow changes to the power structure and such.) >>

ldspartan is confusing channel operator flags (+o) with owner flags (+n) here. It was my responsibility, as a owner, to give out and take away channel operator status to users. I never have tampered with owner flags. Doing so, I agree, would be a serious offense.

<< Recently, particularly in the days. leading up to his dismissal, he had become more and more beligerent, and had started to change flags and settings on a more massive scale. >>

This statement is misleading and inaccurate. ldspartan is confusing flags with the channel stats on one of the bots. I did reset some of the channel stats, however these stats were already invalid and were going to be reset anyway in a few days. No flag tampering was done. And this deal about "on a more massive scale" is absolutely not true.

this is long in coming, but bryan didn't email me a response like I asked.
To his first comment, he did change owner flags, and did so on a daily basis. Even so, it is general policy on #ti to not op (+o) anyone without the consent of at least a couple active owners/masters. I don't recall Bryan handing out ops without asking, but these things tend to get fixed whenever another owner notices, so it is entirely possible I was not informed. I won't argue with him on that one, since he already said he did. More over, his behavior on the botnet was horrid. I will not go into the details of running #ti on a public forum, but trust me on this one.
To his second comment, that's true, leading up to his dismissal he basically went nuts over an error in a database of channel stats. Now, this database was going to be reset in a few days anyway, but Bryan took it upon himself to reset it manually. The reason it had not been reset yet was the program that maintaned it was being tested, and it needed the data there to produce results. Normally, I wouldn't really mind, but since he did it on my bot, using a script that I had made, while it was being worked on. There are few things more annoying then having the databse you are trying to fix minor problems in get erased while you are fixing it.
Anyway, Bryan threw a hissy fit of such proportions that I was forced to bring the entire statistics keeping program down in order to shut him up. This was not an isolated incident, Bryan tended to go crazy over minor things that bothered him. More importantly, he tended to take major action instead of conferring with other owners. Worse still, he would change things (major things) on other owners bots without asking. Once again, I will not discuss #ti matters on a public forum without a really good reason.

ldspartan seems to be confused on many points.

<< To his first comment, he did change owner flags, and did so on a daily basis. >>

Changing owner flags means giving people owner power (+n) or taking owner power away (-n) from users. I don't know what you have been drinking ldspartan, but the people who have owner status on #ti are a very static group of people. I have very rarely taken away owner power, probably once or twice in the last two years.

<< Even so, it is general policy on #ti to not op (+o) anyone without the consent of at least a couple active owners/masters. I don't recall Bryan handing out ops without asking, but these things tend to get fixed whenever another owner notices, so it is entirely possible I was not informed. >>

I don't recall ever giving somsone op status without talking to at least one other owner.

<< More over, his behavior on the botnet was horrid. I will not go into the details of running #ti on a public forum, but trust me on this one. >>

Horrid? I don't think so. You and I did have a disagreement over the channel stats, but no horrid activity occured.

<< To his second comment, that's true, leading up to his dismissal he basically went nuts over an error in a database of channel stats. Now, this database was going to be reset in a few days anyway, but Bryan took it upon himself to reset it manually. >>

The reason I went nuts over the channel stats was because another owner purposely changed my stats just to make me upset. Everyone agreed that the stats needed to be reset, so I decided to reset them myself. I agree, this kind of behavior is pretty stupid and child-like, just like all IRC behavior tends to me. I don't see why we are arguing over this.

<< Anyway, Bryan threw a hissy fit of such proportions that I was forced to bring the entire statistics keeping program down in order to shut him up. >>

I was upset that my stats could be changed and that no one else cared. It was ldspartan's decision to take down his scripts.

<< This was not an isolated incident, Bryan tended to go crazy over minor things that bothered him. >>

This was an isolated incident. There have been many disputes on IRC, some I have choosen to get involved in and some I have choosen to stay away from.

<< More importantly, he tended to take major action instead of conferring with other owners. Worse still, he would change things (major things) on other owners bots without asking. >>

This is not true. "major things"? Major things would be delinking bots for no reason, stripping all flags from a particular user, etc. I did not do such things. However, all _my_ flags were stripped for no particular reason.

<< Once again, I will not discuss #ti matters on a public forum without a really good reason. >>

Good.. talking about IRC here is really pointless, its a totally different world and a lot of people wouldn't relate to it.

Bryan, I'm too sick and too tired to argue with you, and I really don't care. But, you did make several false / misleading statements in the above paragraph. If you or anyone else is truly curious, email me like I asked originally.

screw you and your side of the story.

I, too, have to be on Bryan's side here. There are a number of issues:
*Bryan and the file archives:
Being a perfectionist myself, I understand and agree completely with Bryan's reasons for wanting exclusive control. Many times have I done something myself to prevent someone else from screwing it up. Perfectionists are a pain in the butt sometimes, but they are valuable assets to any staff. Also, I had no idea that Bryan tested every program and also went beyond submissions to gather programs. That's committment, people. There are people you couldn't pay and get that much from. Everybody knows that ticalc.org and the two other calc-mega-sites are file archives first and all that other stuff second. Bryan did an amazing job with the archives and we already know that his replacement isn't going to work nearly as hard.
*ticalc.org's grievances:
Among them was that Bryan took control of other people's jobs when their performance did not satisfy him. Bryan denies it. But even if it were true, I would again count this as a good thing. If Bryan cared that much about the site to do other people's jobs or at least complain when they aren't doing them, then it could only have made ticalc.org a better site.
They also complained that Bryan was argumentative. I know what it's like to be right yet also surrounded by idiots who won't listen. I sympathise with Bryan.
*The method of dismissal:
Even if Bryan had been on-line at the time, that's what, five whole minutes notice? Oh wow. To plot behind his back and then stick a knife in it the way they did is dispicable. It makes the remaining ticalc.org staff look even more like a%%holes then when Bryan erased TI-Files. Speaking of which...
*The TI-Files hack:
At the time I was distressed that Bryan did such a thing, but now that I think about it, it was kind of funny. Heck, why else would someone give him that password if they didn't want him to do some damage. Besides, TI-Files should have been able to restore their backups within 15 minutes. That they didn't says something about them.
*A ticalc.org boycott:
If only we could. But there are too many people that visit the site and have no idea who Bryan even is. I suppose we could make up an "I support Bryan Rabeler" anti-ticalc.org graphic for our web pages. I'll even do it myself if there is interest. At any rate, ticalc.org will continue, but they probably won't be the best calc-mega-site anymore. TI-Files, anyone?
*A work of thanks:
I'd like to thank Bryan for thinking of me back when they were looking for a staff member to do the FAQ and help e-mail (the job eventually went to Nathan Haines). It's for the better that I didn't get the position since I now don't have to resign it over this travesty.
*To close:
I wish Bryan all the best, and I hope he doesn't drop out of sight in the TI community just because the twits at ticalc.org didn't appreaciate all he did to make their site a better place.
Ray Kremer
(This note simul-posted on the CALC-TI list and ticalc.org's "Our side of the story" comment board.)

I have to say that I totally agree with you on this. I too, am a perfectionist. I have always thought that it is better to do it yourself than to have fix what someone else has f***ed up becuase they didn't know what they were about. Most people would think that this is unacceptable, even the coordinators obvisively, but this is really a vitrue. When you have someone trying to do someone else's job becuase they are slacking off, then he should be praised not... well we won't go into that. He is doing what is in "the best interest of the site"... which has been said.
Well, I believe mistakes were made on both parts and grievences made beyond reconcile. But hopefully the ti community can rebound off of this.

Jimmy

BTW: There is a lesson learned from this... When something like this happens again (it most likely will), don't put up a message board, it only invites the bored and may I say, ignorant, people to come up with ideas of boycott and the like.

Doesn't ti-files also do stuff like this? IMO dim-ti should become the new hq if there is to be one.

And it could. The thing that makes Dimension TI seem like some secret place is the background, though.

Didn't Adam get kicked out of files for working too hard on the archives? Seems some interesting parallels are going on here...
They should join together IMO. IIRC dim-ti lacks 92 programs. That is Bryan's specialty, so he can do that.

Absolutely not. I quit, I was not fired. The reason was because I was the ONLY one (except Dave, who does the archives there) who actually did any work and I felt that I didnt get any appreciation for it. Besides, I wanted to work more on Dimension-TI. It wasn't the archives, either :)

I know I said i wouldn't post anymore, but I just thought of something...

Obviously with the thousands of people that come here every day, certainly not more than 25 to 50 at the very most would take the time to read up on this incident, and if they did most of them just wouldn't care.

However what can be done if anyone is unhappy with the performance of ticalc.org is to start another ti site. I don't mean this in a very hostile way to ticalc.org (just minorly upset).

I think that they wouldn't mind at all trying to be better than another site. The only reason that there site is more than an ftp directory is because they like what they do and they want to do it good.

Lets start a new site...

We need someone with a server and unlimited internet access and a t1 connection. Wait no one has that so I guess well all just keep coming to ticalc.org like usual unless someone provides...

! ssam noilleber