For those who think bryan was delt with too harshly, have you never heard of a pink slip? It is used to notify someone that his or her position is terminated at their establishment. It is not a gradual let down. It is effective immediatly, and either someone will clean out your desk for you or we will allow you to clean out your desk at a later date under supervision.

The owner(s) of this site choose the first option. Their right as the owners!

For anyone who finds himself in bryans shoes. It doesn't matter how right your ideas are, if you buck authority this is what will happen in the real world. Working well with people is much more important in the real world than being right. I am fortunate to have found this out very early on.

For the owner(s) of ticalc.org I hope that eventhough Bryan may have been out of line (I don't know I am not to judge "I DONT OWN THE SITE ANYWAY") If he did have good ideas whether improperly fought or not please do not dismiss them. I find his idea of testing programs before releasing them to be extremely sane. And the idea that it would elevate you above other sites to be true.

Bryan and others consider this an early lessen before your boss hands you a pink slip and your unemployed because you were right and had to make sure your boss new it!

Just because it's the way the world works doesn't mean it's fair or curteous. I can think of quite a few things that are wrong with the way the world works.

Anyways, pink slips are usually used in huge companies where you haven't seen the guy who fired you since he hired you a few years back. I can't think of any reason for a ten-person company where everyone has daily contact with one another to use only a pink slip as a method of termination.

I used to work for a 10-person company that fired a service tech (10% of the work force! call Wall Street!).
The service manager informed him when he arrived on Monday morning, then watched him clean out his truck. Then they gave him a ride home. It was all over by 9:00am.
The reality is that, even if you provide a severance package, it is stupid from a security standpoint to keep an employee on who knows he's been fired. Whether you have 500 or 5 employees.

(and, btw, Bryan's reaction of running to the mailing list complaining lends a lot of credence, imho, to the decision, which seems well explained)

ok. wait a minute. fired...from a volunteer job? im sure you can't be getting money for doing this, or where would it come from?

im personally sick and tired of how everyone was on the mailing lists after bryan explained his side. each side always has the possibility of making the others look like asses and saying nothing is their fault. i feel that it is both their faults personally. maybe bryan should have loostened up, and maybe the others should have talked to him.

but they didn't. and there is no reason to ban ticalc. its a good site. if ya all feel bad for bryan talk him into making a new and better site and you can all support him by going there. you don't have to stop going to here because of what the stories say. to be honest, we will never know honestly what the whole reason was. because both parties are saying different things. and only the people that were in on it know.

there is no conspiracy out there, there is no reason to ban the page. just talk it out. end it civily, maybe if bryan needs a little help for a site, some people from ticalc can help him for a bit. (im sure that not all of them hated him) im just saying they should try for this. i don't know if its impossible, only they can decide. so just try to end this civily, and lets get some actual games out so i can play some damn new ones!!! im sick of all of the ones now. put your time into programming not into worrying about this. there is nothing we can do. =)

I have a fealing that both of their stories are slanted a little. I am not going to stop coming to this site, I'll just make it a backup if I can't connect to the wonderfull TI-Files. And if you want games, do something usefull and make it yourself.

"wonderfull TI-Files" ......tahts a load of sh!t !!!

Hardly, otherwise there wouldn't be all of this slamming that always takes place whenever someone mentions "TI-Files" on TICalc’s page. They are not a bad site, just another one. TICalcs's side of the story did seem a little on the defensive though.

I wonder why...

I think Bryan was doing a good job on this site. I don't think de deserved to be 'canned' for little (or big) things he has done. I think that the owners of ticalc.org are trying to take over and wreak the site. It was great even before anything happened. The TI community keeps growing because of all the people that need them. Even other sites such as TI-Files and Dimenion-TI are great. This site *could* be one of the best. But things like this could make that not possible. You should not have gotten rid of Bryan.

I've been lurking here for almost a year now but this I have to reply to. You say that Bryan should not have been let go because of the quality of the work that he did on this site. Fair enough. Let's expand this hypothesis to see if it holds up under other situations. Let us imagine, a postal worker. This postal worker is also the number one worker in his office. He is the recipient of many awards and commendations Including a record breaking streak of 12 Golden Letter Awards issued by the Postmaster General himself. One day this goes postal and kills 15 people including 7 co-workers. My question is, should this postal worker be allowed to keep his job, and his freedom, simply because he is such an outstanding postal worker? Admittedly, killing 15 people is a BIG thing. Feel free to substitue the reletivly smaller thing of; Throwing over 1,000 pieces of mail into the river simply because you could not finish a rout (An actuall occurance less than 2mi from my house.)

Just some food for thought

Exactly. I almost posted something Similar to this Anaolgy, Only It was an Axe Murderer working in an axe factory. Sure He makes Twice as many axes as the other workers, but what good is he to the company if he goes out killing people on the weekend with an Axe he made. As for the firing. Lets look at the above. You have four choices as the owner of the axe factory and the employer of the axe murderer:

1) Throw him out of the company now.
2) give him a 2 week notice that he's fired
3) Kindly ask the axe murderer not to go out killing people on the weekends
4) Let him continue the killing spree because it's free advertising and reap the benefits of selling more axes.

Now, considering that giving him a 2 week notice gives him a chance to make an axe specially made to fit your skull when he kills you on saturday,
and knowing that he dosen't have an axe sitting at his house because he used all of them last weekend, and considering that he is pretty much set in his ways and will continue killing no matter how much you tell him to stop, as well as the media catching on that all the axe murders in the last 6 months were comitted with your company's brand of axe, and the're starting to ask questions, What would you choose?

Bryan did so much obvious work to ticalc.org that for the longest time I even thought he owned the site personally. He's done a ton of work here and then he always appears in the mailinglists helping as well.

I figured since this is just a small organization and not some huge corporation that all the members of the site would be friends. As you know, friends can be stubborn sometimes. They can even piss you off so much that you don't see them for awhile. But.. rarely do you ever straight 'end' a friendship. Like any good friend, Bryan will no doubtedly get on your nerves at times. But I don't think any amount of that can justify booting him. You don't do that to your friends. At least not to those who worked so hard on such a thing.

-Justin Karneges [Infiniti]

I think you hold a viewpoint that lots of others share, and here's why it's not quite on target. It's true that our staff should operate more like a bunch of reasonable guys working together in a productive, casual way than as some sort of rigid and impersonal machine. However, there's a tendency for people to take it too seriously and destroy the friendly atmosphere. Bryan's guilty of this.

The main thing is, no matter how much work someone has done, they are never above criticism. Let's say Bryan somehow had another shot to trash a rival site, and he took advantage of it again. There would be no excuse for this, and he would not deserve to remain in his position of respect any longer. I don't think anybody could make a good argument for letting him off easily in such a situation. But you're telling me that because he's done so much work for us, he's immune to any sort of punishment, no matter what he does? That he has a license to act any way he wants without consequence? That's complete bull. I don't care who you are, the line is drawn somewhere, and Bryan had been dancing on it for a while. The point I'm making is that there's always a threshold, and Bryan exceeded the limit.

Chris

I was pleased with the work that bryan did for the site and hope that he continues to be a part of the Ti community. Personally, share justin's opinion that he should not have been let go, since he was so beneficial to the structure of the site.

Well, if everything your telling me is true, then I think he probably could have ran the site by him self... You actually should have let him do EVERYTHING for a day and see if he was able to do it... Then he would have stoped critizing everyone... Well thats my 2 cents...
(KSA)Tekken

I feel that letting Bryan go was a very good idea. From the sound of it he must have been a very selfish, spoiled, 12 year old. His inability to work with others shows a lack in maturity along with they way he is uncapable to take the blame and fess up. The way this kid acts absolutely infuriates me. He should have been "let go" right after he declined to apologize for the TI-Files incident. Anybody who feels the need to crash an entire server because he felt cheated and then refuses to apologize and claims that it wasn't a childish thing should do should go back to kindergarten and learn how to act in the world.

For one thing... he didn't "crash an entire server" as you say. He just gave them a little hell for a day. If knew prefectly well that there was a backup archive and that no inrevokable harm would be done. He was just a bored person looking for some entertainment. Wrong as it may be.
I in NO way condone his actions on that November day... but its nothing to get in a ruckas about.
About him being a "spoiled" kid... people are how they are, if you can't live with them because they are stubborn or "immature" then you are just as immature and stubborn. Like they mention (over and over agian), compromise!

Jimmy

I have posted my response to this at my website. You can view it by clicking on the link above.

I guess I can agree with you on not giving him any notice. If I were him and got fired and had a password I would've trashed everything before I left. (that's what most people would do if they got upset enough).

Still I don't think that people should actually be fired from a stupid webpage. I mean it's just a webpage.

Group run webpages don't need to act as though they are a business and decide to get rid of someone. When people contribute to a project they should get some credit. Unless they trash your site you just shouldn't be fired from a webpage.

oh well, this was my last word ever on any of these topics.

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This "side of the story" was informative and well needed, yet inadaquate. You addressed some of the issues that Bryan brought up, but not all of them. In fact, in my mind, you left out some of the most important ones.

What sounds to me like the worst thing ticalc has done, from reading Bryan's essay, was to takeover his E-Mail account. How can you invade on his privacy like that and read all his mail? That's his private account and you have no right to infringe on that. I'll bet that's even illegal. This issue was not addressed in this article.

Second, what happened to that promise that Bryan would be a "site coordinator" in the next election? I have no information about this except what Bryan has said, so I have no choice but to beleive that it is true. Again, ticalc has posted nothing about this issue. If Bryan was lying, then you should say so, otherwise I have no choice but to beleive him.

These and many other things Magnus and ticalc.org have conveniently chosen to ignore when posting this news article. It was a good thing for ticalc.org to do, to post this news article, but it seems that it's only to make ticalc.org look better, not to give the community the information they deserved. Much information has been left out of your article that was included with Bryan's which forces us to beleive Bryan's side.

I never said Chris promised me a job as a coordinator. Chris said it was possible and more likely after more time had gone by. I clarified that in my response to Chris' e-mail. Click the link above to read it.

I couldn't agree more. Too much was left out by the staff of ticalc.org, too much that leads me to believe that Bryan deserves a lot more than he is getting. As a supporter of both Bryan and the site, I would like to see this matter resolved.

I think you're taking too many of Bryan's speculations at face value.

Bryan's email address is attached to his account on our server. Letting him continue to log in is unacceptable. So we can either set his address to forward to his non-ticalc address, or we can forward him any personal email he receives for a few weeks and give him a chance to tell people about his other address. You must also consider that Bryan receives lots of ticalc mail to his address that he's no longer responsible for; that is, people who host with us may have been talking directly to Bryan instead of hosting@ticalc . If we just forward all of his mail directly to him, there's a good chance we'll never see this mail, and we'd be putting on Bryan the burden of forwarding all of these back to us. So our only realistic choice is to manually forward him his non-ticalc mail.

In addition, I made sure to send Bryan a copy of all of the archived mail he had on our server. Bryan had *8 MB* of archived mail. Throughout these messages were references to passwords for our hosting sites and other sensitive information that had to be removed before Bryan got a copy of it all. It would be irresponsible to our hosted sites to give Bryan a copy of all of their passwords; this was totally necessary. And do you have any idea how long it takes to look through 8 MB of email and bleep out passwords, just searching for the word "password"? A long time, but not nearly as long as it would take to read each and every message, most of which were mailing list emails and almost all of which were about calculators. Trust me, we have no interest in invading Bryan's privacy any more than is necessary. Use your head: do you think Bryan's speculation that it took us a couple of days to send him his email because we were spending hours and hours reading it all makes any sense? Bryan may have that kind of time, but I don't, and I don't appreciate his assumption that everybody else is as devious as he is.

And do re-read Bryan's revised first letter. He was not promised a coordinator spot, only a chance at one.

Chris

"I think you're taking too many of Bryan's speculations at face value" - That's exactly what I'm saying, it's your job to tell me why I SHOULDN'T beleive him. By not addressing some of what Bryan said, you're not giving us any alternative.

What you said about his mail now makes sense to me; all I was asking was for some clarification. I still don't think it's entirely just; by looking for passwords you are still reading his mail... but I guess I can't think of a better way either. Except, of course, assigning each hosted site a new password.

>Bryan may have that kind of time, but I don't,

Thats another reason I don't see how you could have dismissed him... The archives will never be as good as it was because I don't think you could ever find another "zombie" to work on the site for 5 hours a day. When someone puts in that work load, you would think they are invaluable.
Everybody is talking about how it is in the real world. Let me tell you how it is in the real world. If you have someone who comes in 2 hours late everyday, drunk, but does 3 times the work that every one else does, and does it better, you would NOT get rid of that guy! You would have to be a complete idiot. (Not that this is the scenario just an example)

Jimmy
** No offense to ya Bryan! **