Re: TI-H: Mel??? Err /: BYE!!!

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Re: TI-H: Mel??? Err /: BYE!!!


I know about DTP, so 4% of the entire PC (As in Personal Computers, not
IBM PCs.) market is going to DTPs and Schools. Schools are slowly, but
surely, replacing Macs with PCs (from here on, unless otherwise noted,
it returns to PC in the IBM sense) as more Educational Software is made
for PCs.

> 
> Apple may have a low market share, but they always have had it. You have to
> look at PCs individualy for this to be valid. Look at NEC, Toshiba, Dell,
> Gateway, Compaq, IBM, and however many other computer comanies there are.
> THere are thousands of super small PC manufacturers, who sell their own brand
> localy (count them as one giant group, constantly changing), but then look at
> the others. They each are big, but only provide a fraction of the PCs. Then
> throw Apple in there, and you see they aren't so small afte all!
> 

They all count as a whole. Sorry, Apple didn't make allow clones until
it was too late for anyone to care. See PC's are open, while Macs are
closed to clones, so Macs and its few clones have 4% of the share, while
PC's share the other 96% with Supercomputers, Workstations, etc.

> They also have the HIGHEST loyalty (return purchase) rate of ANY computer.
> People look at them like they are going to die, caus eof the small proportion
> of the PC buisness they provide, but then look at Compacq as if it were allone
> against all the other PCs. It'd also look like it's got low market share.
> Peopel forget that and comapre mac to PC, where it needs to realy be Mac to
> Compacq, to IBM, to Gateway, to MEC, etc, etc, etc. That is why Apple looks so
> small and measly! They aren't too diferent than the other companies.
> 

Dell has 92% loyalty. (PC world survey '97) Gateway has 92% loyalty, I
can provide other higher than 70% loyalty compaines. :) What does Apple
have? I bet now with all the problems its at max 60-70%. Sorry, I don't
buy that. Apple is small and measly because it IS small and measly. It
needed Microsoft to help keep it ALIVE! People look at them as dieing
because there is virtually no software for it. No, you compare Apple to
the sum of All its PC competitors. You are trying to falsely make Apple
look like its larger than it is. The PC market is filled with clones,
and to be a fare comparison, you take the sum of all PC manufacturers
and compare it to the DIFFRENT Apple computer.

> Apple also has it's strenths. They are good word processors, Desktop
> publishers, Graphics and movie making machines. 

For Movies, SGI is what the pros use. Macs are crap when compared to SGI
machines. Sorry, TV shows (Most noteably Star Trek) may use Macs. Most
don't.

THey have a high regard when
> you look at the educational software

PCs are taking that over, slowly...

, and it is known for ease of use, making
> it a good computer to start with. 

Which is why Macs are only found in Elementry Schools and Middle
Schools. HS use IBM PCs.

Compatibility programs are standard stuff,
> and allow you to read PC disks and files. 

For Macs. PCs don't have that. PCs do read Mac CDs, but that is because
of the Standard ISO 9660.

Apple knows they need to be
> compatible with the other world. 

Because they are nothing in their own.

I can say this much! Mac disk drive read PC
> disks with higher accurac than A PC drive. I've heard numerous stories of two
> PC users with disks they are trying to swap, and they use a mac as a middle
> machine to do the copying, cause the PCs can't share the disks! 

I'll give you this one, PCs floppy's are know to be cheap. We just
bought a whole computer lab of computers at our school and 1/2 were
going bad(actual drives) This is what happens when you don't go with a
reputable dealer. (We went with a small local company, I personall have
bought 1 IBM, 1 Dell, and 1 Gateway. All of which have no problems, its
who you buy. Don't blame the whole PC market because you have a bad
exp.)

I've done this
> so many times!!! THe Mac is also a bit more comunicative. It tells you more
> when it formats a disk, lets you know if there was a problem, and tells you
> details about file copying. 

So does Win95/98. So? It requires more skill to operate, and more time
to learn to use its features, but after you learn, it is MORE POWERFUL.
But, I guess a simple OS, for simple tasks is okay... :) The more
diffacult to OS is to learn, the more POWERFUL the OS is. DOS was more
powerful than Windows, and MacOS. And Unix is the most powerful of all. 

I have not had an app bring down the OS since I
> installed Mac OS 8.1, and I have had one crash in the past 4 months!!!

So, Linux users, which usually run with PC hardware, have run months or
years without a reboot? So, What are you proving? relibility? PCs have
that. I've run mine for days without crashing. (That is in a row.) and
I've not crashed the OS In months. 

 THat
> was also expected cause I was doing some stupid stuff I knew wasn't good!
> Managing the OS is easier, and trouble shooting is a breeze when things do
> quit working. 

No its not. You need a Mac technician to do anything with hardware.

They are simple and the one button mouse is not the end of the
> world. You can buy 1, 2, 3, 4 and even more button mice!!!! GOD!! is this so
> hard to do? they sell you one button mice for simplicity. 

That is the point, Macs are TOO simple.

You don't need it.
> If you do, you can always add it for a few bucks!!!

All programs made for the Mac (DTP and Word Proc wise) are made for the
PC. Yes, ClarisWorks, all though not well accepted, had a breif stint on
the PC, and may still even be made. But, I bet most Mac users use
Microsoft products for Word Proc, Spreadsheets, etc. DTP Is all Adobe,
which is also made for PC. You aregument is a noble attempt on that one,
but not totally true. :)

> I will defend the Mac to the very end, and I know that'll be a long time! 

Predictions place Macs at 2% of the market share by 2005. :) (Newsweek I
belive, I can look it up, not from a PC mag.)

The
> GUI is simple for a reason. It lets you do things easier, and easier means
> more productive!!! 

On the few software titles made for it, but the true reason for buying a
computer is GAMES. (Yes! Belive it or not!) And PC hardware/software is
light years ahead of Apples in that respect. 3d cards, which Mac doesn't
have. (NOTE TO GRANT: This means NATIVE hardware, not PC hardware in a
Mac)

I remember hearing that IBM used to bay programmers by the
> lines of code they wrote. or something like that. Think about it, if you coud
> do something efficiently in 3 lines, or slower in 12, what woud you pick if
> you had that payment method! 

That was a long time ago. (Pre-1980s) Now, they are paid by hours. (Some
do get overtime, most DON'T.) Mac programmers got paid the same way,
sorry.

PC users stil think this way. Well, it's simpler,
> so you must not be able to do as much. 

You can't. You don't have access to simple system controls. You can't
hack the Memory Settings if you feel like it, you can't overclock if you
feel like it. You can't do as much with a Mac as with a PC. 

It's the opposite. I saw some poll a
> couple years ago saying how PC users in some office were given Macs and they
> did like 30% faster than the PCs, but with only an hour of explaining and
> training, where they had used PCs for years!!! 

Yes, but at what cost to the users CHOICES did the Simple OS give? For
example on a Mac you are VERY limited to what you can change system
wise, on a PC you can, if you so desire, mess with low level system
settings. Removing choice is a BAD thing. Here is an example, a Mac got
a CD caddy stuck in its drive. We had to TAKE IT TO THE DEALER TO GET IT
REPAIRED. On a PC, pressing a paperclip in a small hole releases the
tray/caddy. This feature did NOT work on the Mac. (I can't remember
Model #, but I think it was a <something> 601.) Another thing, IBM users
can buy a new HD, install it INTERNALLY without having to get a tech to
do it. Mac users buy EXTERNAL drives or get a tech to do it.

It wasn't the speed of the
> machine that made them so productive, but the ease of use and simplicity!!!
> Tell me that isn't a good factor to look for in a computer!!!

Yeah, buy Windows 95. You'll enjoy it. Get Office 97, it won't crash.
Win95/98 is a MacOS clone. I hate using it, I prefer DOS. :) But, when
the Game market goes that way, you follow.

> I remember what a high performance mac used to cost. Now look! The owest of
> the high performance macs still kicks a PII300 in the @$$!!! 

Proof? Hardware to hardware bench. Bechmarks can be cheated. Maybe the
G3 designers made the proc so it would inflate the Bytemark, w/o
actually an increase in speed. A PII-266 does 471 MIPS, a G3 366 671
MIPS, where is the big diffrence? 100 Mhz, only a diff of 200 MIPS?

It also is only
> $1400! The low end machine is a COMPETE system with monitor dfor only $1300!
> I'd like to see you get a PII300 with monitor at that price, cause you'd need
> to go even faster than that to even match it!!! 

PII-333 for $2200. Complete with 8GB HD, 19 in. Monitor, 24x CD, Modem,
PCI Sound card, NIC card, STB Velocity 128. Low end on PC costs $1000.
with monitor. High end is as high as you want to pay. PII-300s go for
$1400. (Sorry, try looking up #s instead of saying yours are so
wonderful, they might not be.)

The $3000+ machines are high
> end machines that are for things that actualy require the processing power.
> What about the $2300 G3 powerbook. It's a good computer, and one of the
> fastest, if you don't count the faster G3 Powerbooks! (:
> 

Ha, recent powerbook adv. Lowest $2300, higher $3200. High quality PCs
go for ~ the same prices, but lowest P233, $1400. Next.

> Also, I think that the Mac has plenty of software. I will not deny that the PC
> is over flowing with software, but look at it! most of it is games. Many
> programs are addons to the system (things that Macs already have in some
> cases), and there is ofcourse a lot of standard buisness software. Macs have a
> ot of stuff, and all of what you NEED. They don't always have the newest game,
> but the quality of Mac games sure as hell makes up for the lower numbers of
> them. And don't tell me there are almost no mac games at all! There are
> plenty!!! And they are pretty good ones too! If you need more, go into the
> shareware and freeware, cause ther internet overflows with those!
> 

Okay, PC is the original Shareware/Freeware market. PC's are the
MAINSTREAM, Macs are a Small niche. Linux started out on PC, the
MOTHERLOAD of Freeware is on PC. Sorry, next.

> Apple is making a come back whether you see it or not. I see it, and know
> anything like that takes time. I hope it's soon, but I know they will at least
> survive. Even if they become a special purpose company, providing high end
> machines to high end users, they will still continue to exist!
> 

No it won't. Microsoft is currently keeping it alive to fend off the
DOJ. (They dumped $500 MILLION into them.) high end, to high users?!?
They wouldn't make it, SGI is faster, etc and for $5000 you can get
something that will run circles around a Mac. Sorry, next.

> Even when they do finaly die (no company will ever last forever, and that
> includes your beloved intel and micr$oft)

Neither will Moterola, and Apple. (PC users don't even like Microsoft,
but what choice do we have?)

, the mac will live on for decades,
> and even beyond, simply due to the loyalty factor. 

Eventually they'll tank. Their costs will outweigh the loyal base. It
will happen. Not until after 2000, but it will happen.

People will keep the
> machine and get the high performance peripherals and software for a fraction
> of their original price since the company died. We'll be able to push our Macs
> to the limit and get anything we want for them, sometimes for nearly free, or
> at least cheap! 


We will use the machine for years to come, even though the PC
> standard continues to go on, changing constantly, leaving obsolete machines in
> it's wake, that no one wants, cause they don't do anything more than the new
> ones do. Macs are special cause they are good computers. They have a longer
> lifespan. You can use a Macintosh SE/30 as a server. I've seen a Classic run a
> second portrait monitor and access the internet. Plus can too i think! I can
> get Mac OS 8 on as low as a 68040 I think. The Mac 128 and 512 can be upgraded
> to Plus easily. They all use a simple easy to use interface. They are powerful
> computers!!! 

That maybe, but, without software made by comercial companies (excludes
Shareware/Freeware) it won't survive. A Computer with out software is an
expensive paperweight.

They can be used for many years to come. I have seen Mac Classics
> and LCs, all the way up to high end powermacs, all networked and being used
> for the same classes.
> 

Yeah, probably in Middle Schools, after that, it switches to PCs.

> Macs will live with or without Apple. 

No they won't if apple tanks, so do the Macs. If IBM tanks, WHO CARES?

Apple just makes them better and better,
> but they will never become a bad machine to use. I mentioned it before. Look
> at the Commodore. It's a machine that was ahead of it's time. The 128 was an
> amazing machine! It had THREE processors!!! one for the C64 mode, one for
> C128, and one for C/PM mode (a Z80 to be exact! Ha, now I'm on topic!!! :) It
> was a good machine, and It is obsolete, but many people still use them! (I do! :)
> 

Hmm, you use Macs and C128s. Where is your Amgia? <sp?> ;) Macs are not
ahead of their time, they were in 1984, but now, they are crap. No one
wants them, except Mac users. You can't survive without new people
buying them. Grant said 150,000 iMacs in 10 days. I don't have sales
figures, nor does he to back that up, but I would estimate that many PCs
are sold a week. (If not more)

> Even if Apple dies, the Mac will essentialy be the next Commodore, but that
> will be a long time from now. Apple will survive longer than you probably
> expect! So don't hold me to hose Commodore/Mac comparisons just yet! (:

People will use it for a while, then they'll buy a PC. You prove it, you
had the C128, used it for a while, then ditched it for a Mac. 

A note to people who want to further this argument, PLEASE LOOK UP FACTS
ON THE PC. If you don't know them, you can't argue. I'm tired of all the
Mac only info, w/o opposing PC info. Your arguments are unfounded
without facts about the PC, making this a flame war, instead of an
advocacy war. Please take unfounded claims to /dev/null or the Trash Can
on a mac, or type "del comments.mne" on DOS, or recycle them on Win95.

This thread has outlive its nonexistant usefulness, if you wish to
continue, take it to alt.flame or email.

Adam
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