I would just like to encourage everyone to enter. This programming contest is made for everyone, and you can program what you want, as long as its original.

The contest is aimed at educational apps, so that's why the prizes are bigger. But either way, the contest is a way that we can get people involved in application programming. And the prizes are worth it!

Oh, and since the article didnt say it, the "limited edition" cases are calc cases with the Detached Solutions logo on it.

--Andrew

Fluorescent orange clear slide cases with the Detached Solutions logo no less!

I would love to enter.....but i don't know a whole lot of z80 so i will stick with the basics! haha.

I think that's part of the whole idea, too. They want to encourage people to learn z80 code. I know next to nothing about it as well, but I wouldn't mind working w/ a group of people or another person to learn and help create.
If somebody wants to enter but doesn't know how to program z80, doesn't have any ideas, etc., then e-mail me and I will try to get a group together.

I would like to note that groups of people cannot enter this contest. Several people may work on one project and submit it, but there needs to be a central author to get the credit and prizes will goto individuals only. In a group, discerning later who should get the prize may be complicated so I would recommend making it mostly an individual effort.

It's not _about_ the prizes.

Yes it is, or else you wouldnt be concerned with reading this page, or the contest news in general. If people were to make applications on their own, without the incentive of prizes, then why isnt it happening already?

It isn't happening because few teenagers (the majority of people here) can afford to spend $99 for the Educational SDK just to distribute free flashapps to everyone else.

The more difficulty question is, why should people be encouraged to write applications at all?

The only significant effects I can see are the following, and they certainly aren't things I would ever want to happen:

1) More programs will be written for the TI-83+ only. This might be slightly helpful to TI-83+ users, but what about the rest of us?

2) Programs will probably get larger. Since the minimum size of a flash app is 16K, even simple programs will become this big. This might allow more stuff to be put into a program, but it will just as likely encourage wasting space.

3) It will take longer to release programs. No longer can someone just write a program and distribute it. If we switch to flash, we'll instead have to wait for it to be signed by TI. If a bug is found in a program, the bug can't be fixed without another signing! Since one must *pay* TI for this, if the bug is not serious, the programmer might reasonably decide to wait until more changes are needed, in contrast to the current state where bug fixes can be distributed immediately if needed.

Of course, it could be argued that this would encourage programs to be released bug-free. This might be somewhat true, but since the program needs to be signed for anyone (other than those with dev certificates) to test it (except on the simulator, but you'd get a lot more testers on-calc), the cost of doing a lot of test cycles is too high.

4) The programming community will radically change, for the worse. When people are developing flash applications, the programmer's relationship with TI becomes paramount, not that with programmers and users, since TI is now the most important step in development.

5) It divides the community into an elite (those who have stuff from TI, like signings and the dev certificates) and the rest of us. Right now, everyone is more or less equal: even though some programmers are more skilled than others (and plenty who aren't more skilled think they are), at least everyone has access to the same resoures. However, with TI's tax on every release (except to a special few for whom this is waived) it will no longer be like this.

6) The above, of course, combine to greatly decrease cooperation. Already, many programmers don't release there source code, and many more try to demand that nobody modifies it. But it will only get worse; even if programmers do release source code, it's mostly useless since the masses can't even recompile it and run it on their calculators!

7) And, of course, it threatens to replace what little community we have with a completely commercial environment. This message is long enough already, so I won't say in detail why I don't like this, but I expect that many of you can guess. Sure, commercial efforts get a lot done on computers

In other words: for

Unfortunately, I accidentally hit the "Post" button before that message was fully complete. Anyway, the intended end of it was:

Sure, commercial efforts get a lot done on computers, but even there commercialism has its critics. And do you think there's enough money for similar achievements on the TI-83+?

What I fear is that (seeing some commercial flash apps) hobbyist calculator programmers might decide that they "deserve" to get a lot of money for programming the calculators, and thus will release no more free software, and will quite likely leave calculator programming altogether when they fail to get the wealth they "earned". This will truly devastate our community.

In other words: for everyone's sake, avoid flash programming!

There will always be free software... always. That point is clear. It started out free, it will always be free. And hey, that's what the point of this contest is for! You're programming a program that will be free for you to develop! Everyone has equal access to the 83+ SDK to develop as good of applications as anyone else.

Sure there may be people that think they deserve to be paid to program for the calculator... (Compare to Microsoft or some other big software company on the PC side). But there will always be people who just like free software.... (Compare to open and free source movements on the PC side) You have the opportunity with this contest to program an application, and get it signed, and you can get it signed however you want! If you want it to be a freeware application, then it will be! You can also sign it as a commercial application if you wish! The point of this contest isnt to give you a way to make money, but to get people interested in making Flash applications.

I know the contest will allow some people to be able to release flash software for free, but what disturbs me is that this only given to some, not all. When not programming flash applications, everyone already has the oppurtunity to release any software for free, and they don't have to enter or win a contest to do so!

Additionally, when I say "free" I don't necessarily mean just things which can be copied freely, but also things which can be modified freely. Even if I get a flash application signed as freeware, what can someone who wants to modify it do? If this person edits the source code and recompiles it, will the signing of the original allow the new version to go on the calculator? From everything I've heard, the answer is no, so the program wouldn't be "free" in every sense. The link above goes to the Free Software Foundation's selection of philosophy documents; read the first few of them to see an "expanded" definition of "free software" and some arguments behind it (which are much better-written than anything I could come up with).

The problem I have with the efforts "to get people interested in making Flash applications" is that, once they are "interested" in them, they will be interested in applications which are certainly not free (not free to be changed anyway, as you need TI's cooperation for this) and that you are giving special, temporary privileges (the ability to get stuff signed without paying) to a few, to get them interested in a programming target for which they'll later be without those privileges.

If the person releases stuff very frequently at all, the signings they "win" from the contest won't last very long, and ultimately they'll be in the same situation as everyone else, only perhaps more "interested" than before in paying TI for the right to distribute programs.

And consider the image this projects to beginners. If someone is just starting to program, and finds a community that considers flash applications to be "better" than regular programs, it's certainly not an inviting situation: you either have to release inferior (RAM) programs, or pay someone to be able to release good programs, or already be one of the best who is able to "win" the right to release software. I'm not sure how others would view this, but if this were the state of TI programming when I first thought about it, I probably would have decided to avoid it altogether, preferring an environment where anyone can release programs whenever they want, without needing to pay, get approval, or compete for this privilege.

Of course, a few flash applications being released probably will do no harm (beyond being non-free, which most software already is) as long as nobody starts to think that being a flash application makes a program any better than a normal one. My basic idea here is that I don't think some people (even those who win contests) have more of a right to program than others.

If you're wondering, I am quite aware that these views are extreme compared to the way people normally think, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that freedom is good for programming.

Plus, on the TI-89 / TI-92+ at least, people have to upgrade their OS to use Flash Apps and if people release good ones it will increase the fragmentation of the AMS versions that people have and create problems with compatibility so that if people choose to use one type of program (Flash Apps) they can't use other types (ones that only work on 1.0x), and vice versa.

Amen Brother!!
I think these should be avoided at all costs.These programs should and always be free.Who would buy programs for a calculator that isn't very powerful anyway?I mean, if your are going to fork over $100+ dollars for a calculator, one should be able to acquire programs for it at no cost.

Actually, don't you consider flash programs to be good in some cases? MirageOS is a good os for the 83+ because it is in flash. Unlike other shells, it is fast, reliable and most importantly, it is ALWAYS there, no matter if you pull out your calc's batteries for a year, or if you reset it. We should use MirageOS as an example. We should use Flash programming to be a gateway for even better third party software.

Thanks for the support...
I feel obligated to provide some sort of counter-thought to the above statements. However, my thoughts are quite long and if I posted them here (especialy with the narrow width of the column this message will display it), it will probably make a big mess on the board. So, I've posted it to the URL linked above. Please, have a read.

Believe it or not, I actually did read your entire document. But, I don't agree with much at all of it. Though a couple of places seem to be due to you not understanding my original statements (which is unsurprising considering that I wrote it in a hurry without even thinking about proofreading it) mostly it is, of course, a fundamental difference of ideology.

The link above contains my response to your statements, which is (at this moment) only partially complete.

Of course, I don't imagine in my wildest dreams that you will be persuaded by anything I say. However, I do (rather foolishly) hope that at least one member of the public will consider some of what I have to say.

Read, considered, and agreed with.

One.

As someone who has written quality software I agree with a lot of what you say. I frequently update and release my main project.

But how do expect a brilliant math application written for the ti83+, which is dependant on documented and available rom calls to work on anything but the ti83+.
I know that 86 and 83 have a lot of rom calls available, but it is nothing like on the 83+.


-Samuel Stearley

ah, not so.
probably all of the math related rom calls are available to all three calcs. in fact, the code for them is nearly identical. they just aren't documented. most of the time tho, the documentation for the 83+ can be used with different constant values.

Has anyone ever considered the 89 and the 92+ in these conversations? They have far more rom calls than the 83+, they have faster processors, sharper, larger displays, support of GOOD grayscale, not the crappy flickery type, CAS software that parallels mathamatica in a way, along with many other features just for about 50 dollars more than a 83+.

(I'm trying to encourage you to buy the 68k calcs instead of the older Z80 calcs.)

When I first saw this contest on ticalc.org, I was seriously considering entering it. However, your arguments have persuaded me not to. There is not a doubt in my mind that this contest is a bad idea in general. In fact, I'm thinking of making my own source a bit more "free" as a result...

Preach on!

I plan to do the same thing. With the next version of TSE, I'm going to release the source.

this contest is a good idea not only will more people learn programming but also more programs will be made for the 83+ which is definetely a good thing. this contest will bring in a new generaation of programmers and even motivate some old ones too...

Do it forr the Jonah Cohen fan club, the club that does not valyou speling that much.

3 Things real quick...

(1) As a firm believer in Opensource & FREE Software (read as not a firm windows fan!...etc.) I will completely have to agree with Mr. Patrick Davidson.

(2) The large amount of respect I have always had toward Mr. Davidson since I first stumbled on this site 4 years ago has just increased largely after reading his statement...of course it didn't change my Views on the matter as they were parallel before I read it.

(3) In the past...before I was a firm believer of Opensource & FREE Software...I made a few, just a few assembly programs for a couple of different calculators, I only released the source code to a couple of those...I will now be browsing through my Archieves for the source that I still have remaining to release to the Public as it needs to be released...especially since I'm not a very active programmer anymore...not that I ever had much merit earned to my name, but I made a few OK programs, nothing special like Mr. Davidson has...off to my Archieves I go....

oops 4 thingies...

(4) my Ti-83+ got crashed Hard...its been 4 days without any batteries including the backup battery & I still can't get it to reset...any suggestions?

-JrJinfinity
http://redrival.com/jrjinfinity

Put the AAA batteries in and press the [ON] button. If the screen flashes briefly and then goes off, then your calculator can recover. Press [ON] and when the screen comes on, press [CLEAR] repeatedly. I have seen this happen to several 83+'s before, and all of them have worked fine. The only thing that will happen is that your RAM will be cleared.

Thanks, that fixed the problem.

I'd have to say that I disagree with a lot of that statement, but I'm going to reply to one part specifically.

>>The whole idea of applications is that they are supposed to be "professional". Please do not confuse "professional" with commercial; they are not the same or even related. When you release an application, the general assumption is that it should be bug free.

The point is that they are bad for the end user. It costs approx. $30 for each Flash signing and if a program is commercial then people will be buying it before using it. As a result of this, it will be more profitable to whoever is making the program to wait for a larger update instead of providing a little release for each bug fix. Windows 95 had tons of bugs, but people bought it. It's professional but not bug free. It wouldn't be profitable for someone to pay $30 to fix a little bug that won't affect who buys a program, whereas if you didn't have to pay TI for each signing people would likely just release the bug fix for free.

I have too read your entire document and totally do NOT agree with it. I understand that the Ti calculators are evolving and are becoming more and more computer-like, but why get so worked over about a calculator? I have a Ti-73,Ti-83+, and a Ti-89. I bought each of these as they came out as my needs expanded.(If your are wondering, I am in Calculus-Trig) and can program proficiently in all of these.How does this make myself ELITE just because I can afford a Ti-89? Information is power. All one has to do is search on how to program flash apps on a different calculator even if they do not have an 83+. Also, has anyone considered programming flash apps for a Ti-73? I had one once and I am sure other people do, too. I say flash programming is an excellent programming tool that should be used when NECCESSARY. TI really should teach the public to program flash apps.Computer companies allow them to be programmed, why not calculators? If I should dare to say-the Revolution has begun.

Flash apps are really nothing special, except that you have to pay to let them be stored/used/executed, whether by you or the user.

It's like microsoft saying that to use or for your program to be installed/run from a partition over 2 gb in size, you must pay microsoft to sign your program.

No sir. That is NOT your space, you can NOT charge me for it (because in the end, you the customer pay for the signing). Not only that but it severely inhibits opensource, which is the primary reason for his arguement.

I have seen the 73 many times in stores and in the hands of other students. I think it is a waste of money. It is also a waste of time to program. Do you notice that it does have a catalog, graph functions, stat, etc. like the 83, but has absoultely no ALPHA keys, do you notice that you can write programs, but it is almost IMPOSSIBLE without the ALPHA keys. Lack of alpha isn't the only problem. It lacks third party software, as well as software support from TI. So far, i have never seen a single class use the 73's as a class set.

So skip the 73, which is intended for middle school use, and go on to the 83, which can keep you company throughout high school and on into higher level education.

Why do you keep called multiple calculator users "elite"? That doesn't mean much, you own "82,83,83+,83+,85,86,89,(92),92+,92+ ... and a LabPro." That's quoted directly from an ICQ message you sent me a while ago. You're a hypocrite. So now what do you have to say in response to this message. I have you trapped. :-). I own 81,82,83,83+,86,89 though, but you have no write to call multiple-calculator people elite when that also applies to you.

I agree. I once looked into writing applications for the 83+ such as symbolic manipulation, but TI's system means distributing an actually free application for FLASH is pretty much impossible. And flash is the only logical way to do something like that, so that it is not lost if something else crashes the calculator or they reset their memory. TI has provided a flash interface designed to make them money (surprise), and they're entitled to do that, but that doesn't mean I have to do that. I prefer to enter programming contests such as the Void or Icarus contests which present real programming challenges where the only prize is being able to master them. And for me anyway, bragging rights is worth more than an orange slide cover with a detached solutions logo.

Anything else that is archived into the ROM will also survive a memory reset or a crash.

On a slightly offtopic note, what happened to the cool stuff on your website like the communist ticalc.org spoof and the fake virus? It now appears to be empty.

It's true. I, as well as many others, want to keep programming for Ti calcs as unlimited as possible. People should not try to sell their Ti programs, even if they ARE flash, or are just really useful. and people should not write programs with TI's sdk. This thing costs a lot, and it's intention is probably to eliminate the free third party software, the kind in Ticalc's archives.

as long as mathamatics are being taught with technological aid, and Texas Insturments continues to come up with new models, adbandoning old ones, the calc community will last for a long time. We must prevent software from being patented and sold. Free software is beneficial to everyone, not just for one person or group.

Does this sound familliar to anyone in all of history? The American revolution was caused by Britan taxing them excessively on their products.
But this time, we, as the third party developers DO HAVE A CHOICE. We can go with Ti, and get "taxed" or go on our own, and program freely and distribute freely. This does not exacltly apply to the 83+, but for the 68k calcs, there is TIGCC, a C language that is even better than Ti's C, and it's free. VTI is much better than Ti's 89 or 92 simulator. Not only is Ti's slower, but it lacks function. It does not do real time emulation. It does frame based emulation. You must press a key in order for it to advance a frame. At least that is what i THINK it is, from a early beta i downloaded. We HAVE all we ever need for programming.

Ti's calcs are great. They have much potential and power. The problem is that Ti is not using them to their full potential. The HP49g, for example, was designed to rival the 89. It could graph faster, and calculate faster than the 89, despite the fact that the 89 uses a 12 mhz Motorola processor, and the 49g uses a 4 mhz propitary saturn processor. This is because Hp used assembly to develop their OS, and Ti used C, probably for speed of coding. (the 89 is actually superior in speed in most circumstances, such as menus, the 49g takes a second or so to load them, as on the 89 where they appear instantly)

Although, in theory, TI will have to sign a Flash APP, there is a possibility that a program like TIB Reciever will be developed for the other Flash calcs. TIB Reciever allows the recieving of unsigned Flash APPs to an 89, so you could modify a ROM, use TIB Reciever to send it, and do it all without TI having to sign it.

Well, in addition to not being able to afford it, few of us actually know how to code in z80. I am interested in z80 programming, but it's almost impossible to learn without tutorials (I've only seen one for the 83+), huge amounts of RAM/ROM clears, or huge amounts of time. Most of us don't have time or patience
As to my concern in reading this page, I'm trying to get a group of enthusiastic people, experienced or not, and just see what we can do together. If it were _just_ about prizes, I'd have no motivation at all, since I'd want to work alone and then I'd have no shot at the prizes anyway.

Judging from the flow of e-mail, however, I may be alone.

You're not alone. The contest, as we originally planned it, was not going to be big on prizes. We planned that the one top entry would get one signing, and everyone else would get a large pat on the back. When we got TI's support, we were able to add some more prizes as a bonus. We hope that the contest will act as a catalyst to get people who have wanted to start Z80 programming to actually do so, and gain some experience.

That's what I figured, but I don't know about the rest of the programming community. At least I seem to have one other person in my group right now.

Don't mind me asking, but why do I see so many people with TCPA url's saying stuff that indicates their participation in this contest? Is this TI + Detached Solutions + TCPA?

I was referring to people more interested in learning z80 / people who would be willing to work in a group with me.

Whoa! Sorry, I thought you were replying to my comment. I don't know why so many TCPA people are saying they're going to work on it, but I don't think the contest is hosted by them as well; I think they're just loyal calculator programmers who enjoy a challenge.

<<why do I see so many people with TCPA url's saying stuff that indicates their participation in this contest?>>

Because Detached Solutions was created by and is comprised of members of TCPA. DS is a business venture, whereas TCPA is a programming group. A person can be in both, you know :)

I think this is wrong. There should not be business ventures in the TI community.

i agree completely. Furthermore, If groups of persons formerly of the ti community try to sell software for profit, I'll try my damndest to make a better version of the same thing for free.

I'll support you. I'm not against flash applications, just the idea of Detached Solutions being a business venture and that they got their applications signed for free. I want to buy the SDK someday so I can release quality applications which are worth the 16K size and benefit people. It isn't fair, though, that I will be paying while some people don't.

Look, I'm having a slight problem with the situation here. Here's what Detached Solutions has done:
-Released three free applications, and source code for two of them (almost two...most of the Puzzle Pack source is released...)
-Sponsored a contest that costs you nothing to enter, and has prizes.
-May mean nothing to you, but answered over 500 "tech support" emails about our applications (takes quite a while let me tell you...)

Here's what Detached Solutions has not done:
-Sold any applications
-Charged money for any services
-Kept our source code under lock and key (We haven't released the MirageOS source, but we'll send parts to people who ask).

If we're a "business venture" we're doing a pretty bad job. We've a revenue of $0 and spend money on web hosting. I wont deny that we've thought about selling applications, because it's true. But, we're not. What the heck are we doing that's so horrible anyhow?

As long as you don't sell anything, I have no problem and I support Detached Solutions. If you ever turn commercial though then that would be really bad and I wouldn't agree with you at all.

On a point of technicality, you don't have to be making money to be considered a "business venture". If you have income and expenses then you are a business. If Detached Solutions starts charging for calculator programs, then it is a business venture. In my previous comments I was refering to if you did start charging for programs. I won't support business ventures, the TI community is noncommercial, and should stay that way. How would you feel if you had had to pay for all the programs on your calculator? With free software, everyone benefits. If some people have a problem with this and feel that they deserve to be compensated for their work, then they either shouldn't have spent time writing the program in the first place, or they should move to computers, where everything (except Linux) is money-oriented. I'm sure most people have seen programs written by people on the Internet that they like, but they find they are shareware, and they have to pay to use the full version. Just imagine how much nicer it would be if you didn't have to pay. Of course, I think the world should get rid of money and we should have an entirely different system of living, so my views may be a bit unconventional regarding computer shareware.

<<Of course, I think the world should get rid of money and we should have an entirely different system of living>>

What? Communism?

No, something similar to what you see in Star Trek The Next Generation. There's no money, everyone lives nicely, they have jobs they like. Personally, I want to be on a starship. ;)

This is compatible with Marx definition of communism. Of course, this word is changed now.

please stop replying to the comments so far in the thread. Right now, this is a Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the comments are so far right in the page it is almost impossibe to read!

This is compatible with Marx definition of communism. Of course, this word was changed in the mean time.

No, I am strongly against communism. I meant that I want to live on the Enterprise-D from Star Trek and explore the galaxy. I've been watching too much Star Trek as you can tell...

What's so bad about communism??

In Denmark where I live (4th richest country in the world) we pay almost 70% tax. We have *NO* homeless or anything like that. Everybody are rather rich.

I US however 300 people have ½ of the money, while thousands live on the street. What's so cool about that???

Communism all the way :-)

That comment describes the mindset of a good portion of the free software and open source communities. For the most part, reactive instead of proactive.

Which is very unfortunate that it has to be that way to fix many problems closed source developers <cough> Microsoft </cough> have created for PC users in general.

Such a democratic example would be Gore, was very Pro-Active (like Microsoft) cause a bunch of non-sense & illegal happenings that shouldn't have taken place. While Bush (like open-source developers) was being Re-Active to the illegal actions Gore took.

Personally, I'm very glad that we did not end up with a sore loser such as Gore for president, that's the last thing this country needs. Last time I checked "real" men don't wine & cry when they lose, they just suck it in like a man...don't believe join the army then you will.

If you go to ebay you can find that people are selling ti resource cd's and the prices seem to be more than the cost of materials and does not include shipping.


-Samuel Stearley

It isn't happening with Flash Applications yet, but what about the entire file archives here? Any of the authors didn't get any prizes (with the exception of the past POTM winners)

As far as I'm concerned.

currently i am working on making a pool table game for the ti-83+. im choosing a select few to help me program for more info. contact me. and spread the word

Will you be selling TI slide cases with the Detacheds logo on them? I need some!!

Nope, the only ones will be given out to the runners up in the contest. So enter and get one!

--Andrew

Haha, I like my fluorescent orange clear slide case with the TI InterActive info on it covering my engineering sample of TI-73 just fine thank you...it is very very unique :).....also considering I have yet to see a "real" cover for the 73...stupid usb port sticks out like a large buttox on the back.

-Corey