It's unfortunate, but I think the audience of the site in general has changed, too. In the beginning, the TI community was a community in the truest sense. The people that visited the site and gained from the services it had ot offer were interested in positively contributing something back. This meant maybe writing their own programs and releasing them to the community, perhaps helping newbies on IRC, or possibly helping out with one of the calculator websites. This is no longer the audience this site mostly is visited by.

The majority of users now don't care about the community. They care about being able to play games on their calculators in class or using them for quick help on a test. These users don't care about helping the community, contributing back, or even being a positive influence at all. They want what they want, and that's the only thing they understand.

I've ranted about this very subject myself on other sites. Unfortunately, no matter how often it's said, there's too many people in the community who only see us to serve them and if they don't get what they want, they're going to ruin it for everyone.

I agree with everything you've said, Nick. It's too bad that the people who will care already above such lameness, and the ones who don't care won't bother to read your article.

I have found the same. Even though I first came to this site to download games, I have gone to the trouble of learning ASM and are working on some major projects that (I hope), will majorly increase the programmability of the calculator.

Fortunately, the mailing lists are unaffected by this apathy.

i am sorry that this off the subject but mem are you really running dos as your primary os?

What's wrong with DOS? :)

where did whats wrong with dos come from?

Mike White's comment about DOS implied that he was surprised that he used DOS as his primary OS. And, I must admit, using DOS as your primary OS is a bit weird, for obvious reasons. JcN's comment asked what he thought was wrong with having DOS as a primary OS... it was a perfectly valid question.

I can't believe you would go off topic on a news subject such as this... you'ld think you could at least wait until the next post :(

[The text of this article has been removed by a news editor due to violation of the acceptable use policy.]

It would probably to best if you read the article and the guidelines once more. Swearing is most definately not allowed!

I'm not sure exactly what it was he said (the comment was removed), but I do know that the guidelines say to refrain from using language you wouldn't hear on US network television. I have stated this before, but that guideline, in my opinion, needs to be altered because the words allowed on network television is greatly increasing (I will not post them here ;)

That is true, you can hear a lot more US network television now (even Nick used "dumbass.")
What I can't believe is the death threat. I didn't think people were really that crazy over stuff. At least, I'd hope, it was a joke, and not serious, even though, either way, it's still serious. I'm surprised that I missed that.

DEATH THREAT???? There are more idiots in the world than I thought....

"a constructive method of discussion about news in the TI world"

If that is the intended purpose of the boards, then why would you need the use of currently censored language? 90% of the time that sort of language is simply used to put someone else down or to rant and flame unjustly against someone else.

[The text of this article has been removed by a news editor due to violation of the acceptable use policy.]

It isn't just you, but I'll block that kind of stuff, too. You're doing exactly what nickd said not to.

Give it a rest already.

well, it is my primary OS for programming. For some reason devpak8x doesn't work on win2k, and I am rather low in disk space, so my computer duel-boots into dos. (for most other things, I use win2k)

There was a TI-86 ASM development DOS program I used which I got from here. It just would not work right under Windows XP. The source code was included, so I narrowed the problem down to one function call.

The problematic function (a DOS system call I think) takes a directory name as a string. It seems that the DOS/Win9x version of the function takes the directory string with or without a trailing backslash, but the WinNT/XP/2k version requires a backslash. The program didn't append a backslash at the end of the string, so the function (and therefore the program) failed in XP but not under 98.

devpac8x probably has a similar bug, so if you can get the source code to it and you're competent in C, you should look for a function that expects a directory name and fix the calls to it.

i fell the same also i somewhat think that there are programers that don't want to be part of the community and just want to be on the top 25 list. in some cases it is not the person's falt, maybe they just don't like haveing other people around. but i think that some of them don't want to have anything to do with the community.
MHPW

Couldn't have said it better. On one site there are the programmers and on the other site the consumers who are most of times pretty young brats who feel better of themselves when people give them attention so they try to be notorious.

The problem is that most non-programmers see the free services of programmers as a divine entitlement. Programmers who release their software for free ask only for respect and are instead berated by gamers for their games "sucking". Evan with my rather lackluster knowledge of 68k assembly, I do respect the developers and their creations that I could not hope to match. I think a way to limit the distribution of powerful code to only the club of people who can understand and respect it is for developers to only release the source code and stipulate in the license that the distribution of executable code is prohibited. Although I know this proposal will invite flames, It would require that users of powerful programs have at least some understanding of the means via which they function and of the genius of their creators.

I really agree with you. I've been to a website of a person who has a list of flame mail and who is a very good programmer. People complain about how one of his games crashed their calculator.

You guys are unlucky :(
Maybe my spam filter is also "Programmer flame" blocking, as most of my (very few) emails are very kind.
I even get friendly bug reports ;)
Then again, I've only been TI-programming for the last 2 years, and only actually releasing anything to the community for the last one and a half.
Now, Nick D had his rant, it's now time for mine -- please, please, any developers (this applies mainly to BASIC programmers) _think_ before releasing anything. The last thing we want is another quadratic equation solver or other tool that the calculator can already do for us. I'm serious: when I come here, I hate having to sort through all these useless tools.
I know I'm applying for some serious flaming here, but guys; if you really want to make a contribution, think out a good project first. These Physics equation programs, for example: not too different from a quadratic equation solver, but are actually useful in that they add functionality to the calculator. Even better, learn ASM and crack out some decent games. This will not only add some cool games and programs to our community, but will earn you much more respect than a program that blatently took you just five minutes to code. Think about it, please, for my sake and the sake of the community. You'll be doing yourself a favour.

If developers went by your rules, I don't think the TI community would ever have any new programmers. Nobody, absolutely nobody, makes a great game or an extremely useful program as their first project. I'd prefer someone who wants to help the community but releases a program that's redundant over someone who has no interest in contributing to the community.

I don't think he's saying that beginner programmers should not try and create any BASIC programs at all, but that they should only submit a file once they have created one that is truly beneficial to the community and worthy of a download.

Exactly. I've got a few HUNDRED programs sitting on my calculator right now that I will probably never publish, simply because they wouldn't be useful to anyone but myself.

A good rule: Unless your friends find it useful, too, don't upload your program.

Hm... Would you consider TankWars (In V200 Basic Games), the first program I released to ticalc.org, to be "truly beneficial to the community and worthy of a download"? Just wondering...

*troll* :)

Or how about *my* first programs? (A number guessing game and a collection of algebra utilities(the number guessing game was slightly unique compared to other ones though...)) ...

I wonder, how many people made a number guessing game in BASIC as their first program. It was mine, and i copied mine from a friend with an 86 who was so excited that he wrote the code on the board before math class...

I still remember how I started programming.

I borrowed an 85, no manual.
I returned the 85.
I got a 92, with manual.
I realized I could program on the 92.
I made a lot of programs, including Tic-Tac-Toe.
I borrowed an 85 again.
I realized I could program on the 85.
I made some random programs, some games, and a Quadratic Formula solver.
Someone told me they could program a REALLY cool game on my calculator.
That person tried to program a number guessing game.
He failed miserably.
I looked at the code, scrapped it, and made my own.
I decided to upload one of the games I made on my 85: Asteroids.

You probably are not too interested in the rest of the story, since it already includes a Quadratic Formula solver and a Number Guessing game.

i am a basic programer and i make hundreds of useless programs for my oun use(like inches to cm or a get key program) but i don't go and put every single one up it would be a waste of space (it would be nice and i would help but if ticalc could file through the files and get rid of all the old demos that the people never finished or all the usless programs that no one downlodes anymore, if you had the time otherwise i could just scroll over them, but i would help if i could).

Good idea.
That'd be nice...

perhaps (though it would be a very large amount of work) the files could be divided into more subcategories based on those that have been proven "good" programs, either by download rates or by actual testing of the programs. I dont think it would be fair to delete the programs completely, but it would help to filter out those that are not as good as others. Just an idea.

yes, but even better then that, how about a rateing system i think that THAT would help people more then good Vs. Bad

Yeah, a rating system would be WAY more accurate than just measuring downloads. You can't tell if it's good or not until you've actually played it.

That would be great!!! I'm tired of going through all the hundreds of identical BASIC programs (not that there aren't some good ones).

Hmm.. I'm probably an exception then cause my first program went on to win an award.

well, you are TheGreatOne, but for us thelesserones (we dont even get caps), we can't be expected to make an award winning program on our first try. :)

O_o

Your account doesn't even exist, according to ticalc.org.

:-0 i wonder how that is

Another thing I find is you should check if ticalc.org already has it before even making it.

Even more importantly, don't make a program that does something TIOS already does (like a "BASIC OS")

There are some very useful solvers, though. For instance, I used string manipulation to find asymptotes of a function, which was definitely not trivial.

You see, I don't have a problem with that at all.
It's just people recreating existing functions of the TIOS but with about 100x more inefficiency that drives me mad.

I feel for you buddy. It has gotten to the point that for the past 2 years I've actually only downloaded ASM and C programs. It is uterly rediculous.

Yup, I've downloaded a whole 3 BASIC programs in my time and that was when I first got my calculator and didn't even know C\C++.

the only time i ever downloaded basic programs was to look at the code and learn from it.

...but that's not to say that I haven't downloaded some Basic programs before, either -- 'Quake 4' spent a merry month on my calculator, and the "Domesday" program that displays the day of the week based on the date, are two that I enjoyed. Now I just blank out when I see "TI-83 Plus BASIC program" - and I could be missing out, but can't be bothered to try anyway.

Its not that i think BASIC programs are inherently bad, as there are a large number of awesome programs written in BASIC, and many solvers and stuff too. BUT, it is a lot of work to wade through the stuff in the archives, and most of the BASIC stuff isnt screenshotted either. So i generally stick to the asm directories, especially for games. Also, now that i have a ti-89, its hard to find a solver program that actually is more than marginally useful to me. But when i had my ti-83, BASIC solvers definitely were useful, but i never dled them, i got them from siblings and friends.

Same here...I rarely even look through the BASIC archives.

I assume you're talking about Patrick Davidson (http://pad.calc.org)

As others have said, the community is changing; but, more generally, technology is changing. The internet is more accessible to more people every day, and so comes along more ignorant idiots who think that just because you don't see anyones faces, that no one has emotion (and this is not a reference to no_one). People online are STILL people, and still get angry, scared, etc.

In addition to the internet growing, the TI market is growing. There are more teenagers, more math and science teachers requiring graphing calcs. So one kid gets a new calc, and finds out he can use it to play games (he might even be one of those ambitious ones that make their own games). With that one kid, 10 more want those games, and so get their own graph-links, and visit more calc websites. While I am part of the 10 other kids and realize the hard work of programming (even though I pursue pleasures other than Z80 ASM), most people do not, and think that programmers are just there to please. When people are not pleased, they insult; sometimes they even threat.

It's a sad world.

The problem is that more and more people see the internet as a big anonymous world in which they can do anything without the fear of repercussion or consequence. Those people say and do things they would not do to offline, they think that right and wrong do not apply because the internet is not real. It is sad and I can only hope that people will learn to treat the Internet like the "real" world and start acting like their behavior has consequences.

The Internet has (sadly) overtaken the real world for most kids these days. You can actually find almost anything from news to weather to communities of people sharing common interests and conversing about said interests on the Web. More people are using the Internet for more things and (my 2¢), because of the lack of face to face human interaction feel, that posts and e-mail don't have a connection to a person.

I shoot people online.... is this wrong?

In games, no, but you know what he meant.

I'll have to agree with this.

There have been times when I've considered asking the ticalc.org staff to delete all my programs from ticalc's archives and from then on I would update only to my site. Updates would be announced at the tigcc message board to people I respect.



The one and only Cheerio:
-Samuel S

I agree with everything you've said too, nickd.
But you know, people who respect the Ti community and ticalc staff are generally silent...
I cant say users have changed since i haven't been following ticalc's adventure since the begining but i think you are right, and this same problem has - I think - led ti-fr to its end.
Nickd, i think your article was really needed, and i think this was usefull to me too.

Sorry for what happened to you, by the way.(come and live in France, this kind of things don't (generally) happen)

Thanks ticalc

I agree with both you and nick. There is a cretain member at calcgames.org that is just as you descrbe. He thinks we are there to please him and he also has no (virtually at least) concept of respect. I feel the pain of you both. All we can do is stick together.

I know exactly how you feel. Check out http://pub26.ezboard.com/ ftichessteamhqfrm5. showMessage?topicID=2465. topic

the last post. I put the newlines in there so the spaces would be easier to see.